Alors, ça suffit maintenant
One or two more items, by way of mopping up. (And just in case there is any doubt on the matter, as apparently there was for at least one commenter: no I don’t think the importance of the subject is in proportion to the time I’ve spent on it; no the fact that I’ve done several posts on it doesn’t mean that I think words are more important than, say, marrying a child of 8 to a man 52 years her senior. I’m just interested; and there is a lot of disagreement and a lot of testimony. I’m interested in language – this is not a big surprise, surely; one of the first things I did with B&W was to start the Fashionable Dictionary. I write about what interests me, in the full faith and confidence that if any reader or readers find a particular post boring, they will know they don’t have to read it. There’s no exam, there’s no exit question, nobody has to read any of this.)
Jeremy told me an anecdote last week. He (you may or may not know) is from London, now lives in Toronto.
“I was at soccer, and some guy on the opposing team was acting the tough guy, and I said something like – “You couldn’t hurt pussy, mate”, which to a UK person kind of makes sense (it just means you couldn’t hurt a small furry animal – though I think I picked it up from my father, so it isn’t something that many people say).
Anyway, there were gasps all around, and someone on my own team said:
“What did you just say!?”
Of course, I’d just said something that (a) was just very bizarre – suggesting a penchant for sexual violence or something; and (b) probably a violation of numerous taboos. Luckily, people guessed that in the UK it didn’t mean what it means here, so I escaped with my life. But it was a close thing!”
So apparently in Toronto it’s risky to assume it means kitty-cat.
But then you move farther east…He told me this yesterday:
“Strange thing. I mentioned this stuff to a Canadian woman tonight (born here), she said that hearing ‘pussy’, even as an insult, she would only really think of cats. She’s aware of the female genital meaning, of course, but denied it would be what came to mind.
When I expressed surprise, she claimed that there’s a difference between the way in which people in the Maritime provinces – where she was brought up – understand this stuff and people in the rest of Canada. It’s less Americanized (so she said).”
Another friend of mine, who has emigrated the other way – from California to Surrey – made this point, after discussing the oddity of ‘how gay’:
“I’m away or I’d look up some quotes about how words ‘chime’, they carry overtones of meaning because they mean more than one thing. In essence, if you know multiple meanings of ‘gay’, then you cannot mention one without invoking the overtones of the other.”
That’s a crucial point, I think. After this discussion I might not go so far as to say you can’t (if only because I’m so sick of Adam yelling at me), but I would at least say that you should realize the possibility is always there.
That’s not even very controversial, is it? Aren’t there quite a few words (like tea-bagging!) that have overtones one doesn’t always want to invoke? Don’t we all know that? Don’t we hesitate over certain words? I think we do, and I don’t think this is particularly different.
And then there’s some just plain stupidity. From the comments:
Look, I can call another bloke a twat just as I can call a girl a prick and neither have any more significant meaning when the terms are reversed. I think you’re just being a massive prude with this whole sexist epithet thing.
It’s got nothing to do with prudery – that’s just a category mistake. It’s not about swearing, it’s not about obscenity, it’s not about blasphemy, it’s not about genitalia as such, it’s about epithets; name-calling; pejoratives. That’s a different subject.
And then just to top it all off we get a guy wondering if women are really all that badly treated – and then I lose my temper. Yes – women are all that badly treated. I’m not, of course, but I’m fortunate; women in Uganda and Pakistan and DR Congo and Nicaragua and Saudi Arabia and a lot of other places are not. Do me a favour: don’t play ‘comparative oppression’ with me. I’m not in the mood.
And thus do we discover that for every denotation, there are numerous connotations; for every utterance, multiple hearers. Dare one say it, no ur-text, no uber-pussy, but only the kitty-cats of our minds…
What there also are, culturally, are treadmills of both euphemism and, shall we say, dysphemism. Both what words are taken to mean, and the contexts in which they are acceptable to say, shift all the time. One of the reasons why, pace OB, these discussions have been so tiresome is the repeated insistence by all sorts of people that words mean only and exactly what THEY want them to mean, and never mind someone else. Infantile, frankly.
OTOH, as a certified born-and-bred Londoner of the honourably toiling classes, I have to say I never heard anyone say “You couldn’t hurt pussy” during my many playground encounters. “Fucking cunt” was the apostrophe of choice, or rather tedium. Sometimes it’s nice to grow up and go places where people don’t swear.
Yes, Dave, but have you, as a a certified born-and-bred Londoner of the honourably toiling classes, ever heard anyone say that he “was at soccer”?
I just find it funny that Jeremy has been Americanized (OK, Canadianized) enough to use the word “soccer”, but not enough to realize that “hurting pussy” may yield “gasps all around”.
“…it’s not about genitalia as such, it’s about epithets; name-calling; pejoratives. That’s a different subject.”
So, can I take it that this whole discussion is about the offensiveness of epithets, whose entire raison d’etre is to cause offense? Although I don’t like to unintentionally offend people, I have, in the past, been known to tell people that something they have said was stupid (or worse), which could also be taken as an epithet. These days, I try to use the word “silly” instead, because it is a bit softer.
Also, one other insult comes to mind – when small boys tell one another that so-and-so “throws [a ball] like a girl”. No reference to female genitalia or use of curse words, but the clear implication is that the other boy is “girlie” in his mannerisms. Is this an epithet?
Where does all this avoidance-of-offense stuff stop?
I missed the final throes of this discussion, but it was fun while it lasted.
As an example of words becoming detached from their original meanings though, I like the way ‘gimp’ in the UK has come to denote a particular kind of sexual fetishist and is only ever used for that although the original US slang just meant (correct me if I am wrong US-ers)’lame’ or ‘cripple’. I am pretty sure the transfer is entirely down to the scene in Pulp Fiction where the S+M kidnappers say ‘get the gimp’ and a man in a full body and face rubber restraint suit is pulled out of a trunk. Audiences in the UK assumed the ‘gimp’ referred to the get up rather than the disability (you can see in the film that he has a pronounced limp/shuffle)and adopted the word, especially in the formulation ‘gimp mask’, which is surprisingly common. I KNOW you are interested in this anecdote, so stop trying to look so cool and aloof.
I realise that this is somewhat OT.
My Grandparents were aliens – no they didn’t have green skins or come from Neptune. Once knew someone who loved to mention his Alsatian ancestry.
_____
FYI:
The ultimate source of information on slang and swearwords must be the online Urban Dictionary.
Cunt: 244 definitions
Pussy: 101 “
Pussy-whipped: 73 “
Gay: 128 “
etc.
Contains some hilarious stuff.
Have a look:
http://www.urbandictionary.com/
Tea – that’s a special case. Jeremy always says ‘soccer’ to me for the sake of clarity – even though I’ve told him, I think more than once, that I know when British people say ‘football’ they mean what Beckham does, not what the Green Bay Packers do. This predates Toronto by years.
We could get into a whole thing here on comparative regional variation in ‘football’ ‘pussy’ ‘gimp’ ‘cheers’ and similar.
“So, can I take it that this whole discussion is about the offensiveness of epithets, whose entire raison d’etre is to cause offense?”
Not exactly offensiveness, no, because that word has acquired way too much baggage by now. But the same idea without the baggage, yes. Is that a problem?
“Where does all this avoidance-of-offense stuff stop?”
Well, let’s use a different word again, but given that – again, what’s the problem? Do you want to argue that name-calling is a good thing? Does a torrent of name-calling usually elevate and enrich a discussion? Does name-calling increase affection and trust? (Real name-calling, that is, not ironic, mock, etc.) In particular, does group-based name-calling oil the wheels of discourse? Does racial, gender-based, sexual preference-based, national, ethnic, religious (yes), regional, body-shape etc name-calling enhance human relations?
Also, when I play with my younger female cat, we joke about whether she wants the “girlie-girl” treament or the “manly-girl” treatment. Are these terms “epithets”, or just a description of a set of characteristics that is commonly attributed to men or women?
It seems to me that most of these epithets are intended to imply that their target is NOT really a member of the group that is hurling the epithet, but instead has more of the attributes of some other group. These could be considered racist, but then lots of groups use these nasty epithets on their own members (I, for example, am Italian, and it is not uncommon for other Italian friends/family members to use the terms “WOP” or “dago” towards one another, in a familiar/derogatory way. I believe that blacks also use the N-word this way, as well.) Should we stop groups from self-identifying themselves in terms that are not sterile and/or a-cultural? Much of our culture is based on words that have this sort of background, and the culture would take a great hit if they were to be banned.
Yeah that’s why I excluded ironic/mock.
Anyway it’s silly to talk about ‘stopping groups’ – I can’t stop anyone! And I wouldn’t if I could. I hate the way these discussions always make that unjustifiable leap. I’m talking about oughts, I’m not sending in the Marines. The fucking Marines.
(Funny about the cat, by the way. When I pester neighborhood cats I find myself saying in a campy voice things like ‘Ooh you like it rough don’t you.’ Well that’s cats for you.) (The one I said it to yesterday was so pleased with my ministrations that she was drooling. Good grief.)
‘You couldn’t hurt pussy, mate’ would be many kinds of weird in the UK also, especially during a soccer game, and would elicit a response of ‘you what, mate’ ‘you fucking gay’, followed by a swift tug on your bollocks a few moments later.
I’m not aloof, John. I found that quite interesting.
So Jeremy didn’t understand the other meaning of “pussy”? Obviously never grew up listening to Mrs Slocombe on “Are you being served?”
No…no… mustn’t…aargh, can’t stop it….
“OB in drooling pussy shock!”
Dave that was so rib-tickling I’m going to have to ask you to observe the Lord’s injunction from Genesis 1:22 .
“… and the Lord saith, Verily, if thou canst not take a Joke, thou shouldst not have joined…”
Blurt of laughter bespattered computer screen…
A few random observations:-
1. This is a theoretical discussion for me, since I wouldn’t use either cunt or pussy as epithets or in any other context come to think of it. I was urged by someone to follow the Vagina Monologues and take back the word in all its glory, but no thanks. It still gives me a shock when I hear teenagers use it as often as I use “fuck” (which my mother would never have said).
2. The women I work with – respectable, middle-class Scots – will say “bugger” but wouldn’t say “cunt”, though working class women will use it. It’s tough speak.
3. How far “twat” has slipped. One of my respectable female colleagues used it today about someone – I think it has got inextricably confused with “twit” and “twerp” and has become very mild, though it means the same as “cunt”. Dunno if cunt will go the way of twat in the UK – its heavy consonants might give it more staying power. It was much prettier in Middle English as “queynte”, in two syllables.
4. These threads have been very popular, possibly on the same grounds that Sir Robert Walpole, the first British prime minister, used to always discuss bawdy at the table (presumably after the ladies had withdrawn leaving the men drinking port) on the grounds that everybody could join in.
3 – Yeah, that’s what I gather. Again, that hasn’t happened at all in the US – but then we don’t use ‘twit’ all that much anyway, so ‘twit’ wouldn’t have the mollification-power here that it does there. All three are fighting-words here.
When I go to the USA then I’ll mind my speech – always good advice for foreigners anyway. I saw “fanny pack” the other day – meaning “bum bag”. I’d advise USAns not to say “fanny pack” in the UK.
Yeah I’ve taken that to heart!
Funny, considering Fanny Burney, Fanny Price, etc. People must snigger the entire time they’re reading Mansfield Park – very odd.