Obey moar
Oh good – there are some women in Malaysia who have figured out how to make the world all better. How, you ask, all aflame. By telling wives to be more obedient.
“We just want to ask all the wives to be obedient wives so that there will be fewer problems in our society,” such as infidelity, divorce and domestic violence, she told AFP.
“Obedient wife means they are trying to entertain their husbands, not only taking care of their food and clothes,” Maznah said. “They have to obey their husbands. That’s the way Islam also asks.”
Right. We know. That’s why we hates it, precious.
Maznah is already involved in another controversial venture — the Ikhwan Polygamy Club, which was launched in 2009 to promote polygamy. Muslim men in Malaysia can take up to four wives.
She is herself in a polygamous marriage, as the second of her husband’s two wives.
In 2010, a study by a Muslim activist group found men in polygamous relationships find it difficult to meet the needs of all their wives and children, and that the result is often unhappy and cash-strapped families.
Golly, what can one say? She sounds like a real tool. In every sense.
Now, Ophelia – you’re being intrusive and strident in suggesting that it’s not right that cultural norms trump human rights. The accomodationist quick response team (AQRT) surely will explain to us how important it is for us to accept these things in order to keep the peace. For the sake of ‘niceness’, you know.
Why are you trying to silence Maznah Taufik? Clearly, there are atheists who will want to accept cash and invitations to fancy gatherings from Muslims, and you’re just going to ruin the good vibes with all your rage, fear, and despair.
See this fist? That’s why!
:- )
Hmm. That’s gotta make for a bit of a strained relationship.
Holy crap!
That’s saddening and infuriating at the same time. This sounds like something that some ignorant male misogynist would say. “Of course we all know that when things go wrong in a marriage it is always the fault of the woman. Always. It could never be anything that the man does, not ever.” So this woman wants to encourage Stepford harems. I hope she finds happiness in her new role as a human doormat, but I hope nobody else follows her career advice. It makes me wonder what sort of background this person has to have so thoroughly absorbed this loathing of her own sex. Oh, of course, silly me. It’s Islam of course.
So Karla, are we still allowed to say that her ideas are wrong-headed and unhelpful, or am I being too shrill and strident?
Do you really want to build a bridge to that?
Just askin’.
Well, it’s not much of a consolation that we have a private group advocating compliance with Islam, as does the Vatican on how you should behave in the bedroom …
… but when the state – the Punjab State Commission for Women – “tells young women [newlyweds] to be ‘very adjustable’ concerning their mobile phone use..”, we are in deep $#!t :(
The Obedient Wife Club??????? WTF. Excuse me while a I run around screaming as if my hair were on fire. AAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
“Maznah said it was also the men’s responsibility to teach their wives to be obedient.” Hair still on fire! AAAHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!
Yikes, Shaker! Thanks for that link.
But what if her husband tells her to become a gnu atheist???
<blockquote>”To entertain their husbands is compulsory. If she doesn’t do this, the husband will look for another woman… and the house will break down.”</blockquote>
But this is a polygamous marriage – so the husband will look for another woman even if she <i>does</i> entertain him.
Also, isn’t it rather creepy that in these polygamous marriages, the wives always have a <i>rank</i> – that it matters that she’s the <i>second</i> wife rather than the first? It’s almost as though the intention is to create a rigid authoritarian structure in which only the people at the top have any freedom!
Awww, sorry about the formatting fail. Need moar coffee…
This is more an example that religious dominated cultures are broken by default, and therefore can’t be fixed by becoming even more religious. That’s why I’m afraid I’m very pessimistic about what is happening in the Arab world.
Leaving aside the whole religion thing for a moment: What the fuck kind of man wants a passive simp for a wife? And what kind of society is filled with such men?* I mean, I’m an average guy but just the same I’m glad my late wife was the tough, strong, opinionated woman she was. When an ass needed kicking she’d kick it – including mine! And I’m a better & stronger man for it.
—
*Rhetorical question. I have a pretty good idea already…
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At least the Stepford wives were robots what’s her excuse?
A slave advocating slavery.
By the way, this is not a savage thing by those backward people who live in some far, far away land; something you see on tv and feel disgusted for a minute, before changing the channel. Not that anyone here has said that, I just want to show that this is our problem too and it affects us directly. <a href=”http://modernreject.com/2011/02/christian-women-and-the-s-word/”>Take a look at this</a>.
I don’t think Maznah can be right. Surely in Islam it is not a woman’s place to tell wives to be anything: even more obedient to their husbands.
Surely it is for husbands to offer that impartial, disinterested and dispassionate advice to the wives of Malaysia and the Islamic world generally.
Once they have heard it from one of the 500 million Islamic husbands, the 500 million Islamic wives should then obey.
I have spoken.
Now hold the elephant still woman, while I climb into my howdah.
Slavery isn’t really slavery when it’s only women. See also Laundries, Magdalene; Baby-farm, Nigerian. And that’s just the top of the front page here.
@jose
Oh, do. Everyone needs to meet Nicole and her commenters. Wholly decent people, working through relationships, except that they’re infected by this virus. So everything they say and do has to be filtered through the infection. And if the virus seems harmful, as with Ephesians 5:22, the diagnosis must be wrong.
An AFP account is one of Yahoo’s “Most Popular” under the heading Malaysian women urge wives to be ‘whores in bed’
Followed your link, Ken…….. Jayyy Zusss!!!!
That’s Paulian Porn.
Just what I was thinking, Ian. If she’s so into “submission” there are shops which will sell her the gear to let her do it properly. A serious psycho-sexual screw-up there.
The path is hard to follow:
I am unworthy,
I must hold to the path.
.
The way grows harder:
I am blinded by sin,
I must hold to it more firmly.
.
Truly Allah is merciful.
This doesn’t surprise me in the slightest.
I’m reminded of a documentary I saw about female circumcision, and it was always the women who were keen the drag the poor unfortunate girls to meet their destiny, and hold them down as they kicked and screamed.
Stockholm syndrome anyone?
Maznah Taufik is a very lucky girl. Isn’t this called Stockholm syndrome?
Stockhom Syndrome? I think we need a new word for it. Stockholm Syndrome refers to a very specific kind of situation. Slavery has many similarities with that situation, and I am sure that the similarities give rise to similar symptoms. Nonetheless the social situation of slavery is not the same as that of hostage-taking, and its psychological consequences ought not to be confused. Otherwise we will be in danger of overlooking symptoms particular to each predicament. I would prefer to use the old phrase “slave mentality”. One symptom of “slave mentality” which is not found in “Stockholm syndrome” is belief: that is to say, an attitude of mind which sees the self as belonging to a larger whole (society) and having obligations within that whole. For example, there is no doubt that women feel obliged to bring up their children in such a way that they will be acceptible to society as they (the mothers) understand it. They will do this even against their own interests because of their wish to promote the welfare of their children.
I can’t believe I just wrote “acceptible”. Kindly assume that I am not ignorant, just behaviourally peculiar when I have to type things.
Maybe it is the favored wives starting a movement to get the out-of-favor wives to STFU and do more laundry? After all, it isn’t uncommon for people to kick the people slightly lower on the ladder rather than look up and try to climb up and off the ladder themselves.
I think I ought to include the women who are used to nurse the children of their masters. A woman (well, any normal person, male or female) will naturally regard a child as a dependent and will treat it as if it were her own. So she will work against her own interests in bringing up the children of her slave-master. But it is more complicated, and relates here to why I think conservatism doesn’t work: the children relate to her as to a mother, and so with each succeeding generation the perception of the slave-class as inferior grows weaker. (Conservatives assume that the inferior people just don’t work hard enough: what would it be like if everyone was an employer and no one was an employee?
Although this view seems to work as regards slavery in general, it doesn’t seem to work as regards sex, and here I think that there are other forces at work which make it more difficult to perceive the enslavement of women for what it is. (Women are objects of desire to men, and men are generslly stronger).
generslly (Oh bugger) generally
Improbable Joe, there is a lot in what you say. I don’t think that human motivations are simple. Us and them, kudos, the saved and the damned, the religious motivation to be better in God’s sight, the desire to be free and happy… It’s very complicated.
Well Gordon, I think the definition of “favored” might be complicated, but the motivation seems pretty simple: whoever enjoys the privilege wants to maintain the privilege. Whether that privilege comes from being the younger and prettier wife, or the wife who bore the sons, or the wife who lucked into marrying a rich and/or non-abusive husband, or the wife who finds herself naturally inclined to be submissive, or any of a dozen other things you can come up with… it still seems like a case of the ones who like where they are telling the rest to STFU and not rock the boat.
I have no doubt that something like “the saved and the damned” comes into play. In this case, it would be that the wife who isn’t beaten by her husband suffers the delusion that she is blessed by Allah and special. She then bolsters her ego by assuming that women who are abused must deserve it, and should just be better people to make the violence stop. It is the same sort of behavior you see in rich people who think that they are morally superior to poor people, and that if poor people would just stop being so lazy and immoral then they could be rich too.
Yes, Joe, I entirely agree. And it is complicated, because although we like to excel we also have to relate.
@improbable joe. Correct. This the very heart of religion. It muddles justice and the reality of life : classes
Actually there is something more to be considered. I’ve just said “although we like to excel, we also have to relate”, and I have used “we” in the sense of common humanity. But it seems to me that for many of us the “us and them” attitude as regards sex is absolute, so that many men do not see that these dynamics, as seen in women, relate to themselves as well. It’s a case of “well, that’s women for you” and not “well, that’s people”.
Went ahead and visited Jose and Ken’s link. Yep, pretty cuckoo, and all the comments but two supportive of the notion that women should, “submit yourselves to your husbands as you do to the Lord.”
Husbands as proxies for, “God.” Charming.
The author goes on lament the passing of the ’50s and calls gender-equality in marriage a, “dangerous substitute,” for wifely submission.
http://modernreject.com/2011/02/christian-women-and-the-s-word/
. . .goes on *to lament . . . .
You know, some of those comments at jose’s link sound a lot like the things I’ve heard from submissives in the BDSM communities. However, there’s never any assumption that there’s a moral imperative to submit, it just happens to be what they enjoy doing within a certain context. Gender divides generally don’t exist, and it’s understood that once the scene ends, so does the submission. What that lady’s advocating, that’s just wrong.
@D. Finney, loved you’re comments there.
Oh, and if you check out her follow up post, she deals with the question “why should wives submit?” thusly:
With a “morality” based on such an idea, it’s no wonder the world is effed up.
Thanks, Nathan. She is promising a part II to, “Why Women Should Submit.” That should be interesting.
Well Nathan, there’s the Goreans. They believe in the moral imperative to submit. She’s reminds me of them except that their belief system is based on a series of crappy fiction books. Oh wait. . .
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0/9061/200763-54527-kazuma_large.JPG
First thing that popped into my head. He’d always say something like that.
She’s written a post in response to the comments she received from D. Finney and others, in which she notes that only men were criticizing her position, and concludes that men have forgotten how to lead, because how else could they not want a submissive wife? I haven’t the time to deal with her as I’m off to work shortly, but any women care to weigh in on her site?
http://modernreject.com/2011/06/vanishing-men/#more-1249091539
@Francis: Ah, yes, the Goreans. I’d forgotten about them entirely until you mentioned them. Are they even still around?
Uh…no. That’s one place where it would be totally futile. There are others. If Fred Phelps has a blog, it won’t do me much good to go there and say “dude you’re all wrong about this stuff.”
I see your point, Ophelia, but with her posting articles like, “Have Sex – Even When You Don’t Want To,” I have a hard time not commenting, for better or worse. My only hope is that a few might walk away with a little less certainty. It’s probably hopeless, I know.
Islam is by far the most insane, anti-human ideology ever to catch on among more than a few hundred people, even putting the death cult of Christianity to shame. All you’ll ever need to know about obedience in Islam is this; there is a hadith that actually says that if people failed to sin, Allah would destroy them and replace them with a people who sinned and sought his forgiveness. I defy anyone to find me any more pathological belief accepted in any major ideology.
Hello all,
This is Nicole Cottrell, author and blogger of a few of the posts that have been discussed here from Modern Reject
To D. Finney, I already wrote the follow-up post as to why women should submit. It’s on my site currently.
I also responded to Dustin and others on my blog. I just wanted to note that the comparison in any way of a mutually submissive marriage, to those of Malaysian women being forced into sex is both crude and offensive.
No where in any of my posts do I even hint at the idea that a husband has the right or authority to force or demand sex of his wife. That is rape.
I am writing about a wife being willing to have sex more often than automatically saying “no.” Those two ideas are worlds apart.
This comment written to another commenter who also raised objections summarizes my position well (I apologize for the length):
“Firstly, the concept that a woman has “boldily autonomy” is not a Biblical one. In fact, the Bible says quite the opposite. 1 Cor 7:2-6 says, “The husband should give to his wife her conjugal rights, and likewise the wife to her husband. For the wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does. Likewise the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does. Do not deprive one another, except perhaps by agreement for a limited time, that you may devote yourselves to prayer; but then come together again, so that Satan may not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.”
We are told by Paul to not deprive our spouse of sex, in order to resist temptation. I belong to my husband and that includes physically. Likewise, he belongs to me.
That is not to say that I have no right to say “no” to sex within my marriage. My point in the post, however, is this: We do many things daily that we do not “feel” like doing–going to work, taking care of kids, paying the bills, being responsible adults, yet we still do them because we know we should. Sometimes, sex is that thing.
As difficult as it may be to understand at times, sex within marriage can quickly become rote routine. It loses its sparkle at times because, well, life gets busy and people get tired or distracted.
If a wife never wants to have sex with her husband, well that is an entirely different problem. I am speaking, however, to most wives who occasionally say “no” to sex even when it would benefit their husbands, themselves, and their marriages to say yes.
There is a lie spun by popular culture that woman need to protect their bodies autonomy (much of which came out of Roe v. Wade in an attempt to legitimize abortion). However, the Lord does not mention such a concept in scripture. I am not talking about disrespecting one’s self, but rather respecting the role of husband and wife and the need for sex within marriage. I serve my husband even when I don’t feel like it. I say “I love you” even on days when I don’t feel so loving. Likewise, I say “yes” to sex even when I may not be in “the mood.”
I will either get in the mood by virtue of saying “yes” or I won’t, but chances are I will be blessed (as will my marriage) for my willingness to obey God’s Word and serve my husband.”
Of course the biggest difference between the readers here and myself is that I view the world through the lens of the Bible. This leads to obvious differences in our worldview. However, please understand that I am promoting neither oppression nor slavery, but a genuine and mutual response to sex within a loving marriage.
I think the point missed here is that we don’t really care about that.
Nicole Cottrell, regards 1 Cor 7: 2-6 – so does it work both ways then? If you get the urge for sex & your husband is dead tired & not at all in the mood, would you expect him to just suck it up, & get it up, to satisify your desires, whether he wants to or not? Or does that scripture only apply to the men?