Persistence through obstacles, little lady
Trump-light.
I recognize women hear such things. Others hear different things meant to suppress, etc. Success depends on persistence through obstacles. pic.twitter.com/LTtVCo53y8
— Michael Shermer (@michaelshermer) February 9, 2017
“Success depends on persistence through obstacles.” Well duh – success depends on persisting through for instance the obstacle of wanting to sit still and eat gelato instead of doing some sort of work. Obviously “success” depends on effort, which is what that fatuous banality boils down to. But does that mean some people should get lots of extra obstacles, so that they have to work much harder to persist through obstacles? No it fucking does not, and it’s only smug gits who aren’t subject to extra obstacles of that kind who can be smug enough say such stupid things.
Nobody should have to “persist” through the obstacle of an onslaught of messages telling her she is second rate, feeble, inferior, not good enough, stupid, a joke, there for other people’s sexual jollies, so ugly she should stay home, and fundamentally wrong and bad. That’s not like exercise equipment, it’s like a pool full of piranhas between her and what she’s trying to do.
Yesterday we had diversity training at work. The topic of women came up. One thing the presenter (a woman) did was an exercise asking what we thought before we heard a word, what was the immediate impression of her. One of the faculty (a man) immediately popped up with the word “bossy”. Shit.
Another instance, she was talking about how women go to the car dealership and how the salesmen treat them differently. A woman near me got very upset, accusing her of saying all salesmen did that. She had not, by the way, suggested that all salesmen did that, but had already indicated that her response was to take her business somewhere else and buy her car where they did not do that. But some people are so angry the minute you suggest that women have any obstacles to get past that they can’t hear the “not all men do that” comment. They are already spitting fire out of their nostrils and ready to stomp on the person suggesting that women have to deal with this BS.
It appears that Mr. Shermer chose to miss the entire point of the graphic…that a woman can persist through all this is an indication of her strength, yes, I think he got that. But that a woman shouldn’t have to persist through all this? He missed that point entirely. Not to mention, the constant contradictions that suggest that no matter what choice a woman makes, she will not be making the “right” choice.
“Others hear different things…….”
More than a touch of Dear Muslima about that line.
The ‘male’ version of this image showed up in my Facebook feed, where (in my feed, at least) I was pleased to note that people actually noticed and renmarked upon how the “insults” directed at the (male dancer) target were primarily commenting on how feminine (*pah-tooey!*) he was. That realization seems to have flown right over Shermer’s head, though I can’t imagine why…
iknklast, finding myself between jobs back in the early 1980’s I decided to try my hand at car sales and landed myself a sales ‘executive’ position with a major – and quite infamous in its day – Yorkshire-based dealer. The company held sales training courses every two months (a 3-day course and a certificate at the end, what’s not to love?), so after 5 weeks of winging it on the forecourt, and outselling the experienced staff hands-down, I took my seat with eleven other salesmen (sadly, no women on the course. In fact, at the time I was there, there were no more than six women employed as sales exec’s across more than twenty dealerships across the North.*) to be lectured to by the most arrogant git I’d ever met. Anyway, long story short, the course had a section on how to deal with women, both those who came in with a man and those who came alone.
Lesson one regarded women who were there with their husbands; talk technicalsand financial details with husband, point out things like mirrors in sunvisors (oooh, apply.make-up on the move without having to tie up one hand with a mirror; what woman could say no to that?) and space for shopping / kids to wife. Man chooses make and model, woman picks the colour!
Next up, to qualify whether a lone woman was ‘worth’ spending time talking to, ask her whether she’d rather make an appointment to come back with her husband or other male decision-maker, because it’s a waste of time giving woman details only to have to repeat them to man a few days later. I did ask if that approach didn’t offend the women who were there to buy a car all on their ditzy old own. The trainer laughed at my shocking naivety; women simply never buy cars by themselves, they always need a man – husband, boyfriend, dad, brother, random stranger – because…….something or other about knowing about cars.
The shit flowed in a similar vein for a couple of hours, and included such wonderful nuggets such as where to stand when a woman is exiting a car in order to maximise the chance of a view up her skirt, and much, much more, none of it complementary.
This was at the close of day one. I was considering quitting right then, but decided to stay until the end out of morbid fascination (and we were in a nice hotel with the company picking up the tab), and learned a lot about pressure-selling and flirting-with-illegal practices; more than enough to convince me that I couldn’t work for that company, and I left as soon as I’d been paid for the sales I’d made.
I did stay in car sales for a couple of years, but for a smaller company whose operating methods were the polar opposite of the first mob, and would have sacked anybody trying to employ cowboy methods.
* Hardly surprising. The trainer’s opinion, which tallied with the company owner’s, was that women didn’t need to know how to sell cars, only how to wear short skirts, flash a lot of leg and stocking tops, and flirt. Needless to say, they didn’t employ what the trainer called ‘munters and fatties’ in the sales departments.
@ 2 Acolyte of Sagan
No I think he means others hear things like
No more wine, thanks, I’ve had enough
Get your hand off my leg
I said, No!
but they nevertheless persist through these obstacles to achieve success.
(/sarcasm)
Good grief, Acolyte of Sagan.
Back in 1994, I was adding to my taxi vehicle fleet, and was searching for a comfortable, and economical eight- or nine-seater minibus.
I narrowed the choice down to two manufacturers.
The first one I visited, I swear the salesman was trying not to sell me a vehicle.
So I went to the VW dealer. The salesman referred me up to the boss, who gave me a test drive, and struck a very good deal on the demonstrator – which, at the time, doubled as the boss’s personal vehicle. He could see the benefit of selling to a taxi business – it would be free advertising for years to come.
Some weeks later, I happened to be passing the first dealer, and couldn’t resist pulling in and leaving a message for the young salesman: “Please could you tell X thank you very much for failing to sell me the vehicle I was interested in, because I bought something much better from VW!”
And it’s not just sales. I was in the hospital following rotator cuff surgery, and I hardly heard a word from my doctor about my surgery, how it was doing, how I was doing, or what he had to do. He stopped in the waiting room to give a nice long explanation to my husband, who didn’t understand anything he said (my husband is a historian; I am a biologist with a background in medical). I was forced to get my information from the historian husband who filtered it through what little he understood, and when I went in for my follow up, the doctor didn’t answer my questions.
When I needed shoulder surgery again a few years later, I went to a different doctor, who explained to me exactly what they were going to do, but neglected to give my husband a run down on much in the waiting room. I think my husband was relieved. He (husband) knows who the scientist is in the family, and will gladly bow to my knowledge, and often takes me along to talk to his doctor when he isn’t sure what to ask. But the first doctor, who knew I was a biologist, and who had to recognize that the questions I had asked him betrayed a knowledge of the subject, still could not bring himself to violate his strongly held convictions that he needed to talk to the male, who by virtue of penis had a superior grasp of such things.
Silentbob; Hah! :-)
tiggerthewing, I’ve only related a few details here.I could give the whole experience book-length treatment. One morning I was on the forecourt talking with a gay couple about a Mini GT when the sales manager walked behind me and advised me -right in front of the customers – to be careful on the test drive in case they ‘bummed’ me. They walked, as did I two days later once I’d been paid. I did speak to his boss about the incident, but he defended the manager, telling me that if we started selling cars to ‘queers’ then ‘normal’ people would go elsewhere, also suggesting that I was upset about it because I really wanted to be ‘bummed’ and he blew my chance.
I don’t recall meeting a single person in the sales deptartments of that company who I actually liked.
It is amazing, though, when you meet a salesman who is actively – and overtly – trying not to sell you their product. Makes you wonder why they’re in the job in the first place. At least you found a decent dealer, although it must be said that by the time you bought the minibus, the major manufacturers were taking more of an interest in how the franchises were being run, and were setting higher standards of customer service. The only reason the company I started with wanted new-car franchises was for the increased footfall; sales staff were instructed to sway potential new car buyers towards the more profitable used cars. That, and the implied respectability that came with the Rover or VW/Audi, etc. name on the showroom walls, the idea being that cowboy companies had seedy, back-street car lots, and the major manufacturers didn’t want crooked dealers soiling the brand.
For reasons I don’t understand, fantasizing about punching Shermer in the throat relaxes me.
Good night.
It reminds me of men who tell women “If you can’t take the heat get out of the kitchen” while going out of their way to make the kitchen as hot as possible. The whole thing bolls down to “There’s nothing wrong with me going out of my way to put obstacles in your way, because if it disturbs you, it just proves you don’t belong here”
Chigau, it seems we might have a shared dream tonight. I’ll hold while you punch, we can change at half time.
(Not very evolved I know, I’m a little cranky right now)
#9 / #11
The only reason anyone might possibly have a problem with that is they’re condescending and arrogant enough to think he can’t take it. #EnjoyYourOwnMedicineAsshole
@Acolyte:
I don’t suppose the name of that dealership begain with a V, did it? And end in “ardy’s”? I once went to a Vardy dealership with my (now) wife. I have no real interest in cars and she was the one buying, I just happened to be there. The salesman kept talking to me even though I told him several times that there was no point talking to me, I wasn’t the customer. In the end she pretty much turned round and left, with me in tow, and conspicuously went into the dealership across the road.
The salesman there took one look at our angry faces and said “you’ve just been across the road, haven’t you?” He went on to explain that they have a special term for people us: “Vardy Victims”.
Interestingly, the Vardy family fund (or at least used to fund, I haven’t checked up on them in a while) private schools that are known to teach creationism. The website of the one nearest to me boasted that anyone concerned about whether they were (illegally) teaching creationism could visit to talk to staff. Needless to say I instantly tried to make an appointment but gave up after they weaseled out of it three times.
latsot, no, not Reg’s empire, this one rhymed with hook. There is a link, though, as Vardy bought ‘Hook’s’ business lock, stock, and barrel when ‘Hook’ retired.
There was very little difference in the sales techniques both men had their staff employ, starting with the script that had to be rigidly adhered to, the rule of never asking the customer a question that could get a ‘no’ answer, the wearing down of the customer in a thousand myriad ways ( the salesman’s mantra was ‘Persistence Removes Resistance’. Creepy, no?), and finishing with the poor customer being bamboozled into signing a finance agreement at ridiculously high interest rates, oten double or even treble the bank base rate at the time. A flat rate of up to 20% interest (45-50% APR) was not unusual, when the banks could lend at around 5-10% (10-15% APR). On top of that was usually PPI, which was never mentioned but hidden somewhere in the finance agreement, and useless warranties that sounded good but were found to cover almost nothing once one read the and de-ciphered the confusing (very) small print. In fact, the warranties and PPI were pretty much 100% profit!
Yes, you were on the receiving end of the ‘men make the big decisions’ method, which they cling to like a shipwreck survivor to flotsam even when all the evidence shows that the woman present is the knowledgeable one and the decision maker. The potential buyers who escaped those dealerships without having being pressured into a deal (this one-off offer is only valid today, etc) were a gift to other, far more ethical dealers.
Sorry for the off-topic meander, Ophelia. It just feels so refreshing not to be talking about The Appresident for once.
Ah, Shermer.
Just boilerplate Randroid/Libertarianism. The same that we’ve been hearing for decades. Nobody needs legal protection from ANYTHING…It might cut into profits, or inhibit the Invisible Hand from delivering utoptian goodies to all the little sociopaths, someday.
Just because someone doesn’t believe in any deities doesn’t mean that they aren’t slaves to some other bullshit. Randroids, red-diaper Stalinists, (trans)gender essentialists, anti vaxxers, Jihad-deniers, Stein voters etc. All entranced with their own brand of bunkum.
Oh, don’t apologize, Acolyte – it’s a very informative meander, and very much still part of the river.
@iknklast #1
In other words,
#notallcarsalesmen
The same defense mechanisms crop up everywhere, it seems.
I looked and looked – no acknowledgment from Shermer as to the origin of “nevertheless, she persisted.” I guess the suppressing of a senator’s speech on the senate floor doesn’t merit his attention. But, of course, speaking of speech, Shermer put up many many many posts against the “regressive left” shutting down Milo Y’s appearances, yet NOT ONE FREAKING WORD about the pro-Milo student shooting an anti-Milo demonstrator at the the University of WA. And not one freaking word about the doxxing of a UW instructor for daring to speak against Milo – I guess his right to free speech doesn’t matter.
Wow. Wow. Shermer is so…what is the damned word…so *simplistic* in his thinking. So lacking in nuance or context. So…so…so *un-skeptical*.
Nice use of the word “git”. Props
What I’m getting from the car salesman stories is that slick hucksters know misogynists are total suckers for gender-role affirmation, and the con men are deliberately humiliating female customers as a mark-sorting mechanism.
clamboy, I was just reading an article this morning about the leftist suppression of poor Milo, and not a word there, either. I also haven’t noticed many of them coming out and worrying about suppression of feminist speech by leftist protestors.