Represent
Jo Bartosch asks one of those questions we’re not supposed to ask: Why did trans women lead the Women’s March?
If the ‘transracial’ Rachel Dolezal were to give a keynote speech at a Black Lives Matter event there would rightly be an outcry. And yet this year the ‘Women’s March’ in London was fronted by someone who has identified as a woman for less time than I’ve had the shoes I’m wearing. Munroe Bergdorf is a transgender model who was chosen to speak by the London chapter of the global Women’s March. In a baffling address Bergdorf offered insights into Brexit, austerity and womanhood. The crowd cheered as Bergdorf explained that laws preventing brothel-keeping were bad for women and that the British media is transphobic. There was an irony in Bergdorf’s amplified and male-sounding voice proclaiming that ‘all women must have a voice’.
“All women must have a voice, including men.” Way to prevent women from having a voice: start giving men who “identify as” women a voice instead of women. Do that enough and pretty soon there won’t be any women’s voices left.
The response of course is “Wull trans women are women. It’s only because you think trans women are men that you see this as a problem.” It gets tedious after a few years trying to explain why that is such a crock, but the fact remains that words don’t magically change material reality, and men don’t turn into women by uttering the mystic phrase “I identify as.” Yes, we “think” trans women are men, because they are, by definition.
One of the most insidious battles women face is against the social pressure to be ‘nice’. We police each other and are judged far more harshly if we put ourselves and our interests first. It is clear that the organisers of the Women’s March have broken under this burden. They have published an incoherent list of ‘Values and Principles’ comprised of 1,479 inclusive-sounding words that mean nothing. Far from being about the liberation of women from patriarchy, it seems the Women’s March wants to tackle everything from the economy to police brutality. As it has long been noted, women are the only group who are not allowed to centre themselves in their own liberation.
And why is that? Partly the above-mentioned social pressure to be nice, partly the social belief that women are “nice” and thus easy to push around, partly the deeply ingrained habit of pushing women around, partly the belief that it’s women’s job to take care of everyone else, partly misogyny, partly because it’s so easy…and so on. It’s a big package, the package of rules about women, and it takes too long to list them all. But make no mistake: that’s what is going on here. Trans “activism” has become a gift for men who love to bully and threaten and shun and try to destroy women and for women who feel compelled to help them do it. (How to explain those women I don’t know. The same thing but inverted? I don’t know.)
Interestingly, transgender men have not achieved the same prominence as trans women. There have been no transgender ‘men of the year’, trans-men members of the Savile gentlemen’s club in Mayfair, or complaints that the Cerne Abbas Giant is exclusionary. A cynic might suggest that this is because, regardless of how someone identifies, how they are brought up, as either boys or girls during childhood, shapes their behaviour as adults. As the ‘wokewash’ Gillette advert made clear, aggression and dominance in men and boys is encouraged and these gendered cultural norms run deep.
Plus everybody knows that trans men are just boring dreary ol’ women and who cares about them?
“men don’t turn into women by uttering the mystic phrase “I identify as.” Yes, we “think” trans women are men, because they are, by definition.”
Ok, but what about sex changes? Like would you recognize Caitlyn Jenner as a woman now – not because she had some vague feeling in her head, but because she actually had her body changed into a woman’s body? Not saying she’s always been a woman but maybe saying she’s been one since the sex change? Or is that too much?
I don’t honestly know what I think on the matter myself. It makes my head hurt ughhh.
“(How to explain those women I don’t know. The same thing but inverted? I don’t know.)”
Well there’s a lot of pressure. No one wants to be the evil heartless reactionary un-woke exclusionist.
Caitlyn Jenner is a trans woman. Easy question!
Jenner has not had “bottom” surgery, and retains male genitalia, as do most trans women.
“Sex change surgery” does not change someone’s sex. It gives the body a better superficial resemblance to one of the other sex. It is not possible to change sex.
Actually I used Jenner as an example because I’m pretty sure she (or whichever) has had bottom surgery: https://www.christianpost.com/news/caitlyn-jenner-bruce-penis-surgically-removed.html
“It gives the body a better superficial resemblance to one of the other sex. It is not possible to change sex.”
Ok so if you’re not basing what sex someone is on what genitals they have, are you basing it on the chromosomes or what? Because it is possible to have XY chromosomes and female genitals: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complete_androgen_insensitivity_syndrome
Sackbut, you bring up a point that has continued to baffle me and I’ve never seen an adequate explanation. I know many trans women (is it most? Are there any stats on this?) don’t have “bottom” surgery and I guess in the US at least there the issue of cost so perhaps cost is the driving factor. I’ve also seen it said that some want to keep reproductive function, although in middle aged trans women who have already had kids, I find that surprising. For someone like Jenner, who has had a family and for whom cost would not be an issue, do we know why not?
Once upon a time, I might have figured it wasn’t my business, but in the light of trans activism in lesbian spaces I think it’s a reasonable question. After all, if being called by male pronouns is enough to trigger dysphoria, wouldn’t staring down at male genitalia be even more so? Is this why there’s this insistence that a penis can be a “girldick” and other nonsense?
This is an area where trans activism has been rather pernicious, stealing the feminist line that women are more than their genitalia and inverting it to mean genitalia are unimportant to the question of a person’s sex or gender.
Anna, re Jenner, I stand corrected. Apparently it was kept secret for a while.
Anna, re how sex is determined: as I understand it, there are five factors, not one, although “body generally capable of producing sperm/ova” might be used by some. The biologists here will have the information available; I can’t find the online resources at the moment.
But trans people have nothing to do with sex ambiguity. In almost all cases, they are unambiguously male or female.
I highly recommend the book Delusions of Gender, by Cordelia Fine.
I don’t have a problem with calling transwomen “women,” but I don’t think that answers the question of whether they should be leading a women’s movement, especially if they have transitioned relatively recently.
In politics, someone who immediately runs for public office in a place they just moved to is usually viewed with suspicion as a “carpetbagger.” There’s a sense that, while you don’t have to be born and raised in State X to represent it in Congress, you do need to have spent enough time there to understand its people and their concerns. There are exceptions, of course, but usually only because the alleged carpetbagger has worked hard to reassure the constituents that he or she “gets it.”
Screechy, around here, someone who was born and raised here, but moved out for a few years and then moved back, was referred to as a carpetbagger, so it is actually broader.
Woman seems to be the only identity you can assume where it is accepted that you immediately represent the group and all contained in it at least as well as those who have lived in it all their lives. I guess because women are so simple and uncomplicated? Because if you put on make up, high heels, and a pink dress you automatically understand women and the issues they face? I guess…
I think at least part of it is that women are the only marginalised social group that aren’t generally perceived as a threat to white men. Black men–I don’t have to elaborate. Gay men–started to get noticed after ACT-UP actions. A lot of us forget that the activism that resulted in the ADA was led by disabled Vietnam vets–young, strong, otherwise healthy men that resented both being sidelined from participating in the public realm and needing help (which, incidentally, is why disability accommodation in the UK looks very different from disability accommodation in the US). Women, though, not so much. We won’t hurt them. We could, and I don’t think men who despise and condescend to women have much of an idea how much women actually control their lives, but (notwithstanding the very rare, but very effective, women’s strike) we won’t.
Anna, sexual differentiation is complex and biological mistakes happen, but usually everything works in tandem–genes, hormones and their reception, the development of internal and external organs, and so on.
Intersex people are a tiny minority of the population. Their existence really doesn’t support transgenderism, as transgender people are, like the rest of us, overwhelmingly unambiguously one sex or the other.
I think trans activists use intersex people in an attempt to baffle the rest of us into thinking there is some complex science behind their ideology.
But unless the argument is that being trans is itself an intersex condition, and there isn’t any evidence for that, it’s really irrelevant.
Intersex people are intersex. People with CAIS are biologically male, but I’m perfectly happy to call a CAIS person a woman, if that’s what she prefers, because she’s likely understood herself that way since babyhood. She’s intersex, but who wants to go around explaining their complex condition to everyone?
I don’t see trans-identified males in the same way.
Claire, most trans-identified men don’t get bottom surgery. From memory, about half of those would like to but can’t, either because of money, or because of medical factors that contraindicate it.
Some TiMs don’t even take hormones.
I have read comments by trans-identified males discussing their feelings about whether or not to take hormones. According to one of them, some men on hormones lose the ability to get erections, but not all do. As he liked his erections, he said he was thinking of trying hormones, but would stop them if they interfered with his fun.
Well, since we’re discussing sex/gender, I saw a link to this post on PZ’s blog:
https://blogs.plos.org/ecology/2019/01/17/sex-≠-gender/
Perhaps that might shine some scientific light on the matter.
Kristjan, I commented on that article at PZ’s. Apparently I don’t read for comprehension!
AoS, and you’re apparently “catastrophically obtuse” too, lol! But seriously, PZ’s blog is notorious for its, shall we say “determined” commenters. While there were some comments that were interesting to read, there was also a lot of shit flinging and name calling. Which reminded me why I never read the comments there.