Puts it in a very binary way
More tribunal:
AR – you agreed its transphobic to say that a person with a female body can be a gay man.
R – yes
AR – you believe that it is transphobic to say that gay men do not have sex with people with female bodies.
R – its not for me to say who should have sex with anyone.
Naughty. That’s not the issue. The issue is definitions.
AR – I’m not talking about individuals. Is it a transphobic statement in general?
R – that puts it in a very binary way and I’m not sure I agree.
But that’s the whole point. The trans ideology does put it in a very binary way: it does shun and punish and exclude people for the crime of saying gay men do not have sex with people with female bodies. That’s what this hearing is about.
AR – anyone with a female body who is attracted to men is a heterosexual, that is an opinion held by many
R – there will be some who believe that
AR – you think it’s bigotry?
R – we are talking about preferences there and its up to that individual
AR – the view that someone with a female body attracted to men, is a heterosexual woman, that is inconsistent with the values of your organisations?R – yes, that is inconsistent with our values.
The truth at last.
AR – the phrase ‘same sex attraction’ had fallen out of currency until LGB Alliance was formed.
PR – yes, but practice was mixed.
AR – Stonewall formed using the term Same sex attraction’.
PR yes
AR – you say it’s not meant to be exclusionary but by its very nature it excludes people who are not same sex attracted.
PR – the difficulty is that it makes sex and gender binary
AR you no longer advocate for people for who are same sex attractedPR – we do advocate for them
AR – you advocate for same gender attraction not same sexPR – we advocate for LGB trans people
AR – stonewall glossary, ‘homosexuality is a medical term for those who are attracted to the same gender’
PR – yes
AR – gender is to do with masculinity and femininity and are culturally determined. If it is culturally determined then it is not innate.
PR yes
AR – a man could be feminine and a woman could be masculine.
PR – people are who they are
Tautological but true, and men are not women.
AR – being attracted to people of the same gender is very different from being same sex attracted.
PR – I do not see the world as that binary.
AR – describes lesbian couples that may be one butch and one femme, aren’t they a straight couple based on gender identity?
PR – I don’t believe there are many lesbian couples like that (Outburst from spectators)
Hahahahaha I just bet there was.
AR – but will you not acknowledge that people who believe in same sex attraction exist?
PR – I believe if someone is denying the human rights of a trans person, that is transphobic.
AR – are you suggesting that Fanshawe and Harris are denying Human rights to trans people?
PR – I’m not accusing anyone of that, I’m not a legal expert.AR – you exclude anyone who wishes to describe LGB as same sex attracted?
PR – we exclude organisations that would exclude trans men and trans women.
AR – that’s a yes, then
PR – yes.
There you go.
Putative LGB organizations exclude actual LGB organizations that don’t pretend trans people are literally and for all purposes the sex they are not. The “rights” of trans people to be “validated” now trump the rights of LGB people to be same-sex attracted.
It is a shame that this is just a tribunal, and therefore probably doesn’t have interrogatory rules governing hostile witnesses. PR is being shamelessly evasive to the point of simply refusing to answer a question and reciting dogma instead.
Any good faith review of the research on homosexuality makes it clear that it can only be defined as same sex, not gender, attraction.
First, an overview of homosexuality from Frederick Whitam: “(1) homosexual persons appear in all societies; (2) the percentage of homosexuals in all societies seems to be about the same and remains stable over time; (3) social norms do not impede or facilitate the emergence of homosexual orientation; (4) homosexual subcultures appear in all societies, given sufficient aggregates of people; (5) homosexuals in different societies tend to resemble each other with respect to certain behavioral interests and occupational choices; and (6) all societies produce similar continua from overtly masculine to overtly feminine homosexuals. Implications for this interpretation of homosexuality include the notion that homosexuality is not created by social structural arrangements but is rather a fundamental form of human sexuality acted out in different cultural settings”
So, homosexuality is a part of normal human variation; it can neither be caused or prevented by any social interventions. One is just “born that way”.
There is a material reality to homosexuality, with a biological cause, just as there is a material reality to many other innate differences between people. The exact mechanism is unknown (in fact, there may be more than one). However, there are also a number of things which have been observed to be strongly correlated with homosexuality (at least for males). These include childhood gender nonconformity, elevated childhood separation anxiety, 2D:4D finger ratios, the fraternal birth order effect, left-handedness, and the familiality of male same-sex sexual orientation.
These correlates of homosexuality can also be found in transgender persons. They can also be found in members of non-Western, so-called “third genders” (which some place under the ever-expanding trans umbrella, but which are really just culturally specific social categories for extremely gender nonconforming homosexuals). However, the key finding from the research is that the correlates of homosexuality are found ONLY in those transgender persons who are same sex (not gender) attracted, but not in those who are opposite-sex attracted. Clearly, the material reality of homosexuality exists only for same-sex attracted persons, regardless of how they identify.
The thing that makes a gay man attracted to males is that same thing that makes an androphilic trans woman attracted to males. They are both homosexual. But so-called transbians aren’t actually lesbians. To someone looking for markers of homosexuality in a gynephilic trans woman, they will not find any, because a gynephilic trans woman is a heterosexual male.
Quercus alba, just dropping a note to say I love your nym.