If only Black Americans had thought to tell White Americans that they refuse to be defined by their skin color. Would have saved a lot of struggle.
For that matter, trans people should just tell everyone that they refuse to be defined by their transness, then all transphobia would disappear, right?
I wonder what “openly” transgender means. Is there such a thing as a closeted transgender? Closeted gayness is definitely a thing, sexual orientation is an unobvious feature of a person, but isn’t trans all about appearing to be the gender you’re not? Why even embrace trans identity if you’re not going to flaunt it in everyone’s face. More ridiculousness from the trans community.
There is, in the Guardian today, an article by ‘Anonymous’ about being a transwoman. I think it is worth reading. Assuming that what is written is true, it does suggest that genuine gender dysphoria is rather more than simply wanting to appear as the gender you are not. It is people like Kathryn Bristow who make it appear that it is.
For what a silly, snippy, unpleasant and dishonest person Kathryn Bristow is, relishing the power that comes with the platform (s)he now has and enjoying the opportunity to bully and demean women and feminists, and to refuse to either listen to or address genuine concerns and genuinely searching and important questions. If that is to be the public face of the trans-movement, as all too often it appears to be, it is hardly going to win friends and supporters.
Tim Harris, as someone with body dysphoria, I think I can agree that there is more to (some) of the dysphoria than just wanting to appear the gender you’re not. I don’t want that at all, but then, I am old, and when I was young, there wasn’t anybody going around telling me I could ‘fix’ my body. I have struggled to learn to live with who I am my entire life, and it is difficult when you can’t recognize yourself in the mirror as really being you. For whatever reason, I never thought the body was the wrong sex, though. Just that it wasn’t…me. Even though intellectually, I knew it was. I still struggle with it, but now I have had to change therapists, and this one apparently is really into the trans thing being real, so I don’t trust talking to her. I have no desire to be told I should change my sex/gender/hairdo/head tilt.
@9 There is a big difference. Sexual preference is not obvious, men fancying themselves women (or women men) is all about being obvious. I don’t have any trouble with the concept either, but I highly doubt it happens in the real world.
I’m not talking about cross dressers, though that is an obvious thing too, and part time. I’m talking about trans people who call themselves “openly” trans, which is redundant, like pronouns.
So a man who is a “closeted” trans woman dresses like a man, behaves like a man, out of some fear of persecution or ridicule, would have a hard time convincing someone of their transness. It is not the same as sexual preference. Might as well call them a part time cross dresser if they even do that in their private lives. Trans is all about being out there in the world being recognized as the sex you are not. Being gay has nothing to do with that.
I wonder if being ‘trans is all about being out there’, and I wonder, too, whether being closeted, whether one is gay or trans, is all that different in this respect, since there definitely seems to be such a thing as gender dysphoria. I have gay friends (the musical & acting worlds tend to be freer than ordinary society), and some of them have told me of the enormous strain of being in the closet, and the relief of ‘coming out’. There was one Welsh international rugby player who ‘came out’ not so long ago and spoke of the relief he felt, as did the famous Welsh rugby referee, Nigel Owens. And I have read here and there of the difficulties faced by young lesbian women in ‘coming out’. And, as I have previously said, I had an openly trans-woman student in one of my classes. In the closet, one is constantly trying to hide an important aspect of oneself, and this makes one’s life somehow furtive and definitely unfree. It is a terrible strain, for no person is an island, and it is hard to have a sort of dishonesty thrust constantly on you. So I do admire people like Owens & Pete Buttigieg.
This is wholly apart from impressionable young people having, as a result of fashionable ideas and the Tavistock Clinic, chemical & surgical procedures thrust upon them, or the issue of trans-women in female sports, as well as other important issues (rape centres, etc), or the clamour and cancelling forced on those who will not readily accept the latest ideological positions.
I wonder too Tim, and as Ikn pointed out, body dysphoria or gender dysphoria could present as closeted trans if the person with the condition never acted on it, but I also don’t think they can be defined as trans. Again, I think it’s an identity that has to be acted on for it to be an identity. It’s just seems silly to me for someone who is obviously acting on their transness to call themselves ‘openly’ trans. Bristow uses this term, but I think it’s appropriation from the gay community is misleading and redundant, as it implies there are ‘closeted’ trans people who are trans before they transition, like there is some latent identity of trans that has yet to emerge. I rather think it’s the transition itself that makes them trans. It looks like more of a persona to me, unlike sexual preference which is a less obvious aspect of a person’s public identity (unless it’s obvious of course!). Maybe they start off small, like a man using lipstick and having a traditionally feminine hairstyle, but then is it not already trans? It’s not closeted if there is some outward transitioning going on. I’m not saying all men who appear as women are trans, this is obviously not the case, as in crossdressing or theater, or appearing androgynous as was trendy in the 80’s for example, but it does seem as if all trans people want to appear as the sex they are not. It’s not that I can’t wrap my head around the idea of closeted trans, it’s just that I really don’t believe it exists. If someone hides their sexual preference, that can surely be considered closeted, but if someone is hiding their transness, then are they truly trans? Maybe I would have to have it explained to me by a closeted trans person. Was Bruce Jenner a closeted trans woman all those years? I don’t think he was trans until he decided to transition. Maybe he struggled for a time with the decision, but during his struggle was he closeted? I tend to think he was not. Confused or indecisive maybe, but not closeted, he wasn’t trans until he was.
Thank you, twiliter, for your thoughtful comment. But, as the Guardian article I think shows, people with genuine gender dysphoria do struggle to ‘come out’, not necessarily as ‘trans’ but as people who feel that they are in the wrong body, which need not mean that they have yet made a full ‘transition’ or have proclaimed their nature to the world. So I think it is perfectly possible for them to feel that they want to remain closeted and not announce what they feel to be their true nature to the world, and in particular to those who are closest to them.
I feel incredibly sorry for people who find themselves in such a situation. At the same time, I have no time at all for the bullying tactics employed by the mostly if not exclusively male people (sexually) who think that their way forward is to denigrate women in general and feminists in particular, who refuse to recognise or address genuine concerns, who employ dubious and dishonest tactics to get their way, and who assert that a mere declaration on their part is sufficient for them to be recognised as what they say they wish to be. I think that is enough for now. I must get to bed!
Yes I agree, I imagine genuine gender dysphoria must be very troubling, and if there are people with genuine gender dysphoria who are closeted, then I think it’s probably a much smaller number than the trans people who refer to themselves as ‘openly’ trans. I also believe that the behaviors of the more vocal of the trans cult, the abusive ones in particular, are not generally representative of those with genuine gender dysphoria, which makes me very sceptical about their claims, even small ones like ‘openly’ that make me a little nitpicky. Thanks for your views Tim. :)
All said by a man who thinks a coquettish tilt of the head is all that’s needed to display womanhood.
“…surely the best thing would be to reject sex as a concept.”
Amazing. While we’re at it, why don’t we all join in and reject viruses as a concept, we’ll have this covid thing fixed in no time.
A classic example of transplaining by a friminist.
If only Black Americans had thought to tell White Americans that they refuse to be defined by their skin color. Would have saved a lot of struggle.
For that matter, trans people should just tell everyone that they refuse to be defined by their transness, then all transphobia would disappear, right?
I wonder what “openly” transgender means. Is there such a thing as a closeted transgender? Closeted gayness is definitely a thing, sexual orientation is an unobvious feature of a person, but isn’t trans all about appearing to be the gender you’re not? Why even embrace trans identity if you’re not going to flaunt it in everyone’s face. More ridiculousness from the trans community.
There is, in the Guardian today, an article by ‘Anonymous’ about being a transwoman. I think it is worth reading. Assuming that what is written is true, it does suggest that genuine gender dysphoria is rather more than simply wanting to appear as the gender you are not. It is people like Kathryn Bristow who make it appear that it is.
For what a silly, snippy, unpleasant and dishonest person Kathryn Bristow is, relishing the power that comes with the platform (s)he now has and enjoying the opportunity to bully and demean women and feminists, and to refuse to either listen to or address genuine concerns and genuinely searching and important questions. If that is to be the public face of the trans-movement, as all too often it appears to be, it is hardly going to win friends and supporters.
And yet when you call yourself a trans woman, you are defining yourself by what’s between your legs (or at least what was there when you were born).
Tim Harris, as someone with body dysphoria, I think I can agree that there is more to (some) of the dysphoria than just wanting to appear the gender you’re not. I don’t want that at all, but then, I am old, and when I was young, there wasn’t anybody going around telling me I could ‘fix’ my body. I have struggled to learn to live with who I am my entire life, and it is difficult when you can’t recognize yourself in the mirror as really being you. For whatever reason, I never thought the body was the wrong sex, though. Just that it wasn’t…me. Even though intellectually, I knew it was. I still struggle with it, but now I have had to change therapists, and this one apparently is really into the trans thing being real, so I don’t trust talking to her. I have no desire to be told I should change my sex/gender/hairdo/head tilt.
Yeah, I don’t have any problem with the concept of being transgender and closeted about it. Really no different than being gay and closeted.
@9 There is a big difference. Sexual preference is not obvious, men fancying themselves women (or women men) is all about being obvious. I don’t have any trouble with the concept either, but I highly doubt it happens in the real world.
I’m not talking about cross dressers, though that is an obvious thing too, and part time. I’m talking about trans people who call themselves “openly” trans, which is redundant, like pronouns.
So a man who is a “closeted” trans woman dresses like a man, behaves like a man, out of some fear of persecution or ridicule, would have a hard time convincing someone of their transness. It is not the same as sexual preference. Might as well call them a part time cross dresser if they even do that in their private lives. Trans is all about being out there in the world being recognized as the sex you are not. Being gay has nothing to do with that.
I wonder if being ‘trans is all about being out there’, and I wonder, too, whether being closeted, whether one is gay or trans, is all that different in this respect, since there definitely seems to be such a thing as gender dysphoria. I have gay friends (the musical & acting worlds tend to be freer than ordinary society), and some of them have told me of the enormous strain of being in the closet, and the relief of ‘coming out’. There was one Welsh international rugby player who ‘came out’ not so long ago and spoke of the relief he felt, as did the famous Welsh rugby referee, Nigel Owens. And I have read here and there of the difficulties faced by young lesbian women in ‘coming out’. And, as I have previously said, I had an openly trans-woman student in one of my classes. In the closet, one is constantly trying to hide an important aspect of oneself, and this makes one’s life somehow furtive and definitely unfree. It is a terrible strain, for no person is an island, and it is hard to have a sort of dishonesty thrust constantly on you. So I do admire people like Owens & Pete Buttigieg.
This is wholly apart from impressionable young people having, as a result of fashionable ideas and the Tavistock Clinic, chemical & surgical procedures thrust upon them, or the issue of trans-women in female sports, as well as other important issues (rape centres, etc), or the clamour and cancelling forced on those who will not readily accept the latest ideological positions.
I wonder too Tim, and as Ikn pointed out, body dysphoria or gender dysphoria could present as closeted trans if the person with the condition never acted on it, but I also don’t think they can be defined as trans. Again, I think it’s an identity that has to be acted on for it to be an identity. It’s just seems silly to me for someone who is obviously acting on their transness to call themselves ‘openly’ trans. Bristow uses this term, but I think it’s appropriation from the gay community is misleading and redundant, as it implies there are ‘closeted’ trans people who are trans before they transition, like there is some latent identity of trans that has yet to emerge. I rather think it’s the transition itself that makes them trans. It looks like more of a persona to me, unlike sexual preference which is a less obvious aspect of a person’s public identity (unless it’s obvious of course!). Maybe they start off small, like a man using lipstick and having a traditionally feminine hairstyle, but then is it not already trans? It’s not closeted if there is some outward transitioning going on. I’m not saying all men who appear as women are trans, this is obviously not the case, as in crossdressing or theater, or appearing androgynous as was trendy in the 80’s for example, but it does seem as if all trans people want to appear as the sex they are not. It’s not that I can’t wrap my head around the idea of closeted trans, it’s just that I really don’t believe it exists. If someone hides their sexual preference, that can surely be considered closeted, but if someone is hiding their transness, then are they truly trans? Maybe I would have to have it explained to me by a closeted trans person. Was Bruce Jenner a closeted trans woman all those years? I don’t think he was trans until he decided to transition. Maybe he struggled for a time with the decision, but during his struggle was he closeted? I tend to think he was not. Confused or indecisive maybe, but not closeted, he wasn’t trans until he was.
Thank you, twiliter, for your thoughtful comment. But, as the Guardian article I think shows, people with genuine gender dysphoria do struggle to ‘come out’, not necessarily as ‘trans’ but as people who feel that they are in the wrong body, which need not mean that they have yet made a full ‘transition’ or have proclaimed their nature to the world. So I think it is perfectly possible for them to feel that they want to remain closeted and not announce what they feel to be their true nature to the world, and in particular to those who are closest to them.
I feel incredibly sorry for people who find themselves in such a situation. At the same time, I have no time at all for the bullying tactics employed by the mostly if not exclusively male people (sexually) who think that their way forward is to denigrate women in general and feminists in particular, who refuse to recognise or address genuine concerns, who employ dubious and dishonest tactics to get their way, and who assert that a mere declaration on their part is sufficient for them to be recognised as what they say they wish to be. I think that is enough for now. I must get to bed!
Yes I agree, I imagine genuine gender dysphoria must be very troubling, and if there are people with genuine gender dysphoria who are closeted, then I think it’s probably a much smaller number than the trans people who refer to themselves as ‘openly’ trans. I also believe that the behaviors of the more vocal of the trans cult, the abusive ones in particular, are not generally representative of those with genuine gender dysphoria, which makes me very sceptical about their claims, even small ones like ‘openly’ that make me a little nitpicky. Thanks for your views Tim. :)