Trivia
This is very trivial, but quite funny in a way. Remember “steph” who derailed the “F word” thread last week with endless passive-aggressive rambling about gnu atheism and New Zealand? And then suddenly at the end went all cuddly and we can get along? No, you probably don’t, because you probably stopped reading that thread when she derailed it, and quite right too.
But if you do, you might be amused to learn that she didn’t really mean the cuddly part. She derailed someone else’s thread – some theology type – to say how horrible I am. Apropos of absolutely nothing. I mean, it’s like a clown suddenly appearing in the middle of a sober newscast. Wha?? Truly funny.
as someone who doesn’t subscribe to any camps or societies (apart from being a member of NZ Green Party and Greenpeace..), what do you mean by the atheist ‘Camp’? Are you suggesting a ‘camper’ as one who would affiliate themselves with the likes of the religious ignorances of Dawkins and co and well as the obnoxious rhetoric of the apparently notorious ‘Ophelia Benson’
Etc etc etc.
The fluffy ones are always so funny – pretending to be all Warm and Goodhearted and Sweet while actually brimming over with malice. Me, I just plain brim over with malice; it’s so much quicker that way.
I hear Ophelia bites the heads off of baby chickens and uses their bodies as finger-warmers.
Not chickens, bunnies! I prefer to warm the whole hand.
That’s ‘Ophelia Benson’ – if that is her real name! And she is only “apparently notorious” – not really notorious, just apparently. I’m sure someday this person will make the big time, but she’ll need to work at it.
Makes me almost sorry that I missed the whole spiel, but I’m not surprised by the two-faced bit. Once you skin the cuddlebunny and remove the passive bit, what’s left but the aggressive side?
Heh. That’s typical of her fluffy bunny random style – putting scare quotes on “arbitrary” things and using words like “apparently” so idiosyncratically that her meaning becomes…elusive.
I’m very mean to fluffy bunnies. They get on my nerves. steph is perhaps the Fluffiest Ever.
Typical two-faced Ophelia, first she denies being a cuddlebunny and then she bites off the heads of bunnies, which one is it? The public demands to know, inquiring minds, etc.
I have whole entire armchairs made of ex-cuddlebunnies! I use cuddlebunny road kill for wallpaper. I am the apparently notorious Scourge of Cuddlebunnies.
Going back over the last thread, Steph’s posts have a very irritating “above it all” quality to them. While it may be true that religiosity isn’t a big deal down here, we’re the exception and it’s entirely reasonable for atheists around the world to try and push back the often omnipresent religiosity they have to deal with.
Furthermore, I’d argue that the reason we don’t have much Culture War down here is that we’re already secular so people naturally think of religion as a personal matter. If the rest of the world becomes more secular, I’d expect the Culture War to die down in other places as well.
No malice Ophelia. As a Kiwi completing a thesis in the UK, I am an outside observer and can afford to be unemotional about it as I’m uninvolved. And I don’t have to face four in ten neighbours believing in creationism or have a government which is driven by religion. The reference to ‘obnoxious’ is not personal: it is a universally accepted perception of the growing phenomenon of which you are not an insignificant part. Your reaction and that of those who commented is interesting as was your judgement of who I am on the basis of profile photos.
“Universally”? What… oh, never mind.
Ophelia, what’s this I heard about the time you shot a bunny in Reno just to watch him die?
It’s all lies, Cam!
It wasn’t Reno, it was Elko.
James K (Baxter?) I actually said that: beliefs are more personal in NZ – not in your face. And I also have said that we don’t have to confront four in ten creationists, religiously driven politics etcetc. So that it why it is interesting, as a case study, to observe how people, who do face these things every day, deal with it. Of course I say ‘apparently’ as I have only recently become aware of Ophelia’s notoriety in this area, and as for ‘universal’, perhaps I should have said ‘outside new atheist circles in the English speaking world’ there is a perception that they are ‘obnoxious’ in their vocal expressiveness, that’s all.
Of course there’s such a “perception” (though it’s hardly pervasive even outside new atheist circles: most people haven’t heard of new atheists). There’s such a perception because so many people spend so much time and energy creating it and repeating it and repeating it again, and again. Just as you are. That’s how backlashes work.
Pretty much. A fish has no concept of water, and plenty of fluffy “militant” agnostics have no idea that the acceptability of their viewpoint is entirely due to the waning power of religion as a force in public life. If it were up to the godhavers, they’d be bullied out of society right alongside the atheists.
Oh, dear, she’s emerged again. Incidentally, she was wholly mistaken in asserting that the word ‘faith’ is only used in a weaselly way in the States, or, more probably, knew very well that it is used in just such a way in the UK as well and simply wanted to stir things up. I’d stick a lid on her rather rapidly before this thread becomes stephanised, too. For all her talk about kiwis not getting in people’s faces, she seems rather adept at prodding people with her bill.
Yes; I didn’t intend to summon her up. I will do my best to discourage her pretend-artless outpourings.
Oh, I don’t think there’s any “perhaps” about it, Steph. I suppose we could unpack the tedious knapsack and discuss exactly why “universally” is an inappropriate word here, and toss around a lot of ideas about “privilege” and “delegitimation” and all that, blah blah margin blah blah universality blah blah. But I burned out on that kind of discussion years ago, and besides, this isn’t really that kind of place.
If you’re actually trying to communicate something here, rather than just vent your feelings, it’d be a great idea to stick to saying things that are not obviously literally incorrect. That kind of precision would be a very minimal sort of politeness, and you might find it leads you to some new ideas. If, on the other hand, you’re mostly interested in venting your feelings at someone, there are many trained professionals available for that sort of thing, often at fairly reasonable rates. Please consider engaging one.
I was going to go on about what English-speaking New Atheist circles turn out to be like when you take ’em out for a beer, not to mention the realities of Queer Nation and the value of dissensus, but it seems like a shame to write all that as a comment on this post. Besides, I’m lazy. Over in another online hangout of mine, we used to celebrate derails and other foolishness by really derailing things and posting recipes. Anybody want a vegan black bean burger recipe?
I resent her use of the modifier “apparently.” You ARE notorious.
I was gone for the “F Word” thread” and therefore was unfamiliar with steph. As an uninvolved observer then I can sit back without emotion and read her reactions to your reaction to her reaction to your post from an outsider’s perspective. From this comfortable perspective, I must say I do look down and find her comments to be particularly interesting. Very curious. It apparently all depends on where you sit. You must try the outside.
She’s a real masochist if she wants any more of that.
Meanwhile – spectacular sunset over Puget Sound. Winter sunsets are rare and fierce.
True in these circles, yes. I explained it – I’m learning. Things that are there, become apparent as you learn. Sastra, you might observe my comments linked to from today on a friend’s blog. I mention Ophelia in passing as part of the phenomenon the blogger refers to. That’s all. Not malicious, not remotely ‘fluffy’, just interested in a phenomenon which is an aspect of my research.
Cam – sarcasm overdone.
No no no, steph, that won’t do. You didn’t just “mention” me.
Before you responded I think you might see I did. Your response, interestingly, reflected a person just like the person you think I am. Full of pretense, superficiality and fluffiness. The rest was about the name, not about you. Really, it’s not all about you Ophelia. It was about ‘the atheist camp’ that Tom referred to.
steph, it’s about me when it’s about me. You dragged me into that conversation for no apparent reason; that wasn’t my doing. And as for thinking everything is all about me…well. I won’t spell it out.
On second thought, yes I will. The F word thread wasn’t all about you, steph, but you sure as hell acted as if it were. You’re remarkably unbashful about simply taking over someone else’s discussion and making it All About You.
You, yourself claim to be notorious – and I was clarifying Tom’s identification of an ‘atheist camp’. Do you fit? And ‘faith’? I was trying clarify the reasons for this group’s objection to a noun. I think you objected to me trying to clarify, which led to to object to me on a personal level. Never mind, it’s only trivia. Why get bothered over trivia, Ophelia.
‘which led to you objecting to me on a personal level …’ whatever. Trivial.
I’m nothing but serious about my black bean burgers. Wheat gluten and ancho powder, those are the ticket.
And I’m actually quite serious about the politeness value of not being obviously incorrect. When you get sloppy, you signal — in however small a way — that we B&W readers are not the sort of people around whom you consider it worth thinking through what you write. It looks a tad contemptuous. That’s unfortunate, especially given that people had already been indicating in the F-word thread that you were coming across as offensive and untrustworthy.
Look, Steph, if that thread is any measure, you’re pretty ham-handed when it comes to this sort of written communication. (That’s the generous reading.) It’s okay. Some people just don’t take to it, especially late learners. But even if you can’t quite master the emotional nuances — whether that’s just how you’re wired, or because life events have knocked you off kilter, or for whatever reason — you can still work to make your statements very coherent and correct, and that can go a surprisingly long way towards making up for tone-deafness. (My friends with Asperger’s get a lot of mileage out of this strategy.) At the very least, it can help make what you say less objectionable, which would be such an excellent start. Just take a deep breath and try.
That’s as far as I intend to engage with you, Steph. Good luck.
same to you cam.
I could take offense at all the analogies, personal insults, attacks and even insinuations about me on the basis of a personal profile photo. I don’t though as I don’t feel emotionally involved. Also I’ve seen this sort of reaction before when an outsider is perceived to disagree with a group such as this in which there is generally consistent agreement. And as Ophelia correctly says, it’s trivial.
Steph:
No not Baxter, though you’re not the first person to draw that parallel :)
It is interesting, but I think what drew OB’s ire (and if I’m wrong I’m sure she’ll straighten us both out) is that you seemed to be passing judgement on her attitude toward religion when she has to deal with circumstances which are, as you yourself say, rather different to what we have to deal with. I used to be suspicious of New Atheist rhetoric back when I first started seriously reading about these issues about 5 years ago, but the more I read the more I realised that New Atheism is a reaction to a real and dangerous cultural phenomenon.
I agree with you James completely – fundamentalism is a completely real and very dangerous phenomenon. And it hass hijacked politics and education too. Part of my thesis involves discussion and refutation of Christian apologetics and fundamentalist scholarship. An investigation of the history and existence and social context of fundamentalism today, is part of my research. But also because fundamentalist religion is something that threatens us all and our futures so much, and needs to be addressed, it is something I’ll take further beyond the completion of my thesis.
btw I adore James K Baxter
and one last thing James – I don’t claim to know how to address it but I am just looking at how it is addressed by those who are confronted with it every day. And I do appreciate how lucky we are that we don’t have to face it in our back yards – yet.
And that is one of the many reasons I love you so, my dear Ophelia. ;-)
Wasn’t there some rule about not feeding trolls? Especially when their paranoia is so extreme that they think all the criticism is based on their profile photo rather than their offensive and tortuous use of english?
“Over in another online hangout of mine, we used to celebrate derails and other foolishness by really derailing things and posting recipes. Anybody want a vegan black bean burger recipe?”
Macaroni and Cheese.
ingredients
1 lb of macaroni (I use either elbows or shells)
5Tablespoons of butter. (This is not a heart healthy or low cal friendly recipe)
8 oz of Colby Cheese
8 oz of Sharp Cheddar cheese.
4 oz of cream cheese
1lb of Velveeta
1 large egg
a pinch of pepper
2 cans of evaporated milk
salt to taste (If you use a lot of salt in the water you use to boil the macaroni then you probably won’t have to add any extra)
pinch of Accent (optional…I hardly ever use it and the recipe is just fine without it)
Process…
Start a pot of water boiling to cook the macaroni. You want to cook the macaroni until it is al dente. Do not over cook the macaroni…
Preheat the oven to 375 degrees F. (You’re on your own with the metric conversions…)
Grate the colby and cheddar cheeses. Cube the velvetta. Try to cube the cream cheese.
After the macaroni cooks (to al dente! No ore than that!) drain it. Heat the butter and evaporated milk up. I use the pot I boiled the macaroni in. After it is close to scalding I stir in the velveta and cream cheese and melt them. Sometimes I use a potato masher to help the process. Then I stir in the grated cheeses. Stir in any pepper, salt and Accent (optional) that you are going to use. Add the cooked (al dente) and drained macaroni back to the pot. Stir everything together to mix it up. Then I put it in either a 5 qt or so roasting pan or casserole dish. It also goes well one of those one use aluminum lasagna pans you can get . Cover the pan and bake it for about 40 minutes in the over. Take it out and serve.
Guaranteed to clog arteries but it is delicious.
Add the egg when you stir everything together before putting the mac and cheese in the roasting pan.
It’s very very true, what Cam says –
It relates to the fact – the perceived fact, perceived by me at least – that there seem to be no really persuasive members of the hate-new-atheists community. There are none who make their statements very coherent and correct. Instead they’re all of the “make your statements very loose and lazy and all over the place” school. They’re all Michael Ruse or Andrew Brown or Chris Hedges or others who imitate their style or just recycle the backlashy vocabulary, the way steph did in #11. Or else they try to make their statements very coherent and correct, but don’t know how, and instead just make their statements 5 times longer than they need to be.
Tezcatlipoca, how well does that freeze, do you know? Does it get grainy or anything?
Steph
If you are doing a thesis on atheism and religion, one of the cases you should consider is Uganda and how religion has interacted with their politics. Try contacting Freethought Kampala for more on it.
http://www.google.co.za/search?client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-GB%3Aofficial&channel=s&hl=en&source=hp&q=Freethought+Kampala&meta=&btnG=Google+Search
Thanks Bruce, but I’m just completing writing it up. The focus is Christian origins (earliest narrative, Aramaic and ‘scholarship’ which is where fundamentalism comes in). But what you indicate is an area I was interested in with research in world religions before the phd, and I would like to pursue these sort of things after I finish the present thesis.
Respectfully Steph, could I make a suggestion that you create your own blog?
And then fuck off to it.
Thanks in advance.