Witty Shmuley
Shmuley Boteach has a laugh at the idea of atheist military chaplains. I think the idea of atheists chaplains is silly in general, but I can certainly see that there ought to be some kind of chaplain-equivalent for people in the military who aren’t religious. Boteach’s objections are somewhat problematic.
And what comfort will they offer dying soldiers, G-d forbid (oops! Even that doesn’t work). Will they say, “Game over. You’re going to a place of complete oblivion. Thank you for your service.”?
Well, what comfort can anyone offer dying soldiers? What comfort will Boteach offer?
I don’t even know, actually. It’s my understanding that Judaism doesn’t actually believe in an afterlife, so what does he have to say that’s different from “a place of complete oblivion”? I don’t know, but if it is in fact different from that, what reason is there to think it’s true? Maybe he says you’re going to a place of infinite ice cream, but if he does, he’s telling an untruth. Why is he the one who is giggling and making fun?
In the same way that it might be uncomfortable for a Jewish soldier to talk about his deepest issues with, say, a Catholic Priest, it is arguably just as uncomfortable for an atheist soldier to talk to the same Priest.
Gee, you think?!
Still it would seem that those who profess an absence of belief can’t really be religious or spiritual chaplains. If you’re an atheist then what you see is what you get. There is no other reality — higher or lower — and the word spiritual is nothing but a crude con.
Well, Shmuley, how do you know there is an “other reality”? What do you know about it? What is your evidence for it? How do you know it’s not nastier than this reality we “get”? How do you know anything at all about it?
He notes that his atheist friends will say things like that, but he feels no obligation to answer or say anything cogent; instead he just says…you know what he says:
…the new atheists, like Richard Dawkins, demonstrate an intolerance and condescension to people of faith that is very similar to what one sadly finds among some of the most close-minded of religious people.
Therefore after death we go to a place of infinite ice cream.
Once again, the utter contempt and dehumanization of atheists. We’re not fully human, see. We’re not whole. And since we’re not fully human, we can’t expect anyone to care that we need sympathy, companionship, and human comfort just as much as the religious do.
Bastard.
Atheist chaplains are useful in the sense that your choices are see a chaplain off the record, or see a psychiatrist and have it become part of your permanent record.
Other than that, Boteach is just flapping his gums to avoid the fact that he’s dedicated himself to Bronze Age fairy tales that are increasingly dismissed by people in the 21st Century. Since there’s thousands of years of no evidence for his beliefs, and evidence that directly contradicts his beliefs, all he’s left with is a constant stream of “atheists are creeps and meanies, don’t be a dick, hold on to religion as hard as you can.”
As always, the blatherings of theists is distraction from the only issue that actually matters: are religious beliefs true or not?
@Improbable Joe
That seems terrible that there is no ‘off record’ grief counselor or psychiatrists available for the troops, since I think that is pretty much what people use chaplains when they’re not doing religious rituals. I have suspected that the main reason we have Chaplains still is that they are much cheaper than someone with a degree in Psychiatry, and more willing to go into a combat zone so that the people that have to go to church can continue to do so. I could imagine that having a non-judgmental person to talk to about the immoralities of warfare would be a significant benefit, even without forgiveness magic being involved.
A fun story my Russian co-workers told me… during WWII, the Soviet government wanted to get the religious section of their society to throw its weight into the conflict, but after all the purges, there really weren’t enough Russian Orthodox priests (either they were dead or unwilling to show themselves) to supply the needs of the troops, so a variety of communist party members or college professors took up the job of being chaplain priests for the duration of the war, most discarding the religion after it was over, but even that cynical step did the trick.
There: a small but hugely significant fix which changes the whole picture. Pity it’s an amend that people like Shmuley never make. And incidentally every time I read ‘G-d’ I want to bang my head against a wall – it sums up so effectively the smug faux-humble servility of religious belief.
I once had a brief period when I thought that the religious persons ability to say to a dying person that they were going to heaven was a possible answer to Hitchens famous challenge (what moral thing could a religious person do that could not be done by a non religious person).
I then realized that this cannot not be true – A non religious person could say exactly the same thing!
“But the non religious person would simply be telling lies!”, I would be told.
Yes, and? What is the religious person doing?
They know as much facts as the atheist does about the afterlife (none at all) so for a religious person to assure someone else of the existence of such a place as heaven their claims will not be based on evidence or ‘truth’. Lying is a pretty accurate description of what they will be doing.
Hmmm strike-through of ‘people of’ didn’t work on the quote there. Oh well.
I think the one point I found inplausible is that Priests in a combat zone comfort dying soldiers. How many Priests are on the ground in Afganistan when the bomb hits or during a combat mission? Maybe if your dying in a hospital. Also, when you die you are not going anywhere, not even to “complete oblivion”. You cease to exist. Is there such a thing as “partial oblivion”?
Boteach seems to be a very cynical person himself, I mean how dare someone challenge his ideology. How are we like fundamentalists? How many people have been forced to be Atheist from fear of violence or been condemned to an eternity of punishment if they don’t support us?
As Ophelia points out, there is no real comfort from religion based on their promises of an afterlife. That does not mean that real people do not receive real comfort from sharing with other real people in times of stress or suffering. It is that human comfort, shorn of all the religious trappings and falsehoods, that an athiest/secular/humanist chaplain can give. It is also all that religious chaplains can give, but they don’t seem to understand that.
People need the service, they should be able to get from someone whose views are similar to theirs. Ideally someone willing to listen more and preach less.
Jerry Coyne says this about Jews and belief in the afterlife:
“Jews aren’t so clear on this, but many do believe in eternal rewards.”
Awwww. Don’t diss the Rabbi that bought us the Kosher Sex DVD!!
http://www.amazon.com/Kosher-Sex-Rabbi-Shmuley-Boteach/dp/B003AM947K
(This product is manufactured on demand using DVD-R recordable media. Amazon.com’s standard return policy will apply)
I had a big argy-bargy about that here a long long long time ago, with Ralph Luker of the history group blog Cliopatria. (I was a member, at Ralph’s invitation, but then they added an evangelist and it started filling up with religion so I bailed – and all hell broke loose.) Suffice it to say that I agree.
Ah, how it all comes back. john c halasz and Uncle Tom Cobbley and all.
http://www.butterfliesandwheels.org/2004/abandon-ship/
This is the one that had the argument about G_d.
http://www.butterfliesandwheels.org/2004/ineffable-and-unknowable/
http://www.butterfliesandwheels.org/2004/irreconcilable-differences/
I don’t imagine that many atheists believe they’re “going to a place of complete oblivion” since that notion is logically incoherent. In fact, as far back as Epicurus, naturalists have taken comfort from the fear of death by their understanding that they won’t be there to experience it.
Jesus Christ on a pogo stick, O, the very same arguments have been going on for long before I knew of you or B&W. Same ridiculous deference to religion by the “liberals” coupled with hostility and distortion of a reasonable objection.
I couldn’t fail to notice how interesting it was to see Jeremy snarking away (which I agreed with). Rather remarkable that he now seems to think you’re a mean bully, and Gnu Atheists are Bad, when in 2004 he was saying the exact same things all of us were, and with a measure of acid!
Good point, Jack.
Doesn’t this go back to the notion that atheists are not quite human? Mr. Boteach seems to assume we could not appreciate comforting words, a friendly face and a disinterested person to help us gain perspective on our troubles. Could we even accuse him of being condescending and arrogant?
‘Will they say, “Game over. You’re going to a place of complete oblivion. Thank you for your service.”?’
How about “Your fellow citizens will remember you, and remember what you did in support of your nation.”
Josh – I know – funny, isn’t it. It was odd reading those comments again. This is why the sudden and total Cutting Off came as such a surprise. To this day I don’t know what all the rage is about.
16 and 17 – yes, and yes.
If that were true, the suicide rate would skyrocket! (Me first!)
@Nadeen:
That sort of like the way Jews can’t really appreciate life or morality or much of anything else unless they embrace their lord and Savior Jesus Christ. I mean, really… how obnoxious of them to expect to have Jewish chaplains, America is a Christian nation and if they don’t like it they can leave! [/sarcasm]
You’d think a rabbi would be a little more sensitive about throwing around eliminationist rhetoric, but not so much in this case.
The man is a jerk. I’ve had enough of these people. Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.
Ophelia, those are some very interesting links in #12. It was 2004 and already people were talking about “militant atheism” and Martin Rees!
I think a lot of this sort of contempt is for the idea that atheists and nonbelievers are constructing a sense of community. We’re supposed to be lone wolves out scavenging in the shadow of death. We’re supposed to hate society and friendship and family and warmth and comfort of any type. We’re cold-blooded realists, materialists, specks of dust, etc…guys like Boteach can’t seem to see that we’re just like them, only without the desire for false comforts. That’s the concession they don’t want to make.
Aratina…yup. Eerie, isn’t it.
Aye, some very nice lines from that “Jerry S” chappy there. Shame he doesn’t seem to post here any more……