Godalmighty. Woman’s Hour today had Kate Barker, CEO of LGB Alliance, on to explain why lesbians are quite pleased about the Supreme Court ruling.

Nuala McGovern: Now you’ve described this ruling as a watershed moment for women and in particular for lesbians; why?

Barker describes the joy and relief of that day

I don’t think people understand just quite how tough it’s been for lesbians over the last ten-fifteen years – I really would characterize it as a kind of dark age for lesbians, and the reason for that is that the LGBTQ+ lobby groups have been encouraging men to self-identify as lesbians, and those men just haven’t taken no for an answer, in terms of trying to access women’s spaces, women’s support services, women’s social groups. So it’s been really really difficult, and an example I suppose that people might understand quite easily is dating apps. So we all use dating apps now don’t we, it’s a common part of everyday life. If you go onto a lesbian dating app you’ll find that 20% plus of the people on that app are men – I’m using the word “men” in the sense that you and I – they’re men-men –

McGovern breaks in –

Well let’s talk about that particular term “men” that you use.

Yes she actually says that – apparently with a straight face. A woman who presents Woman’s Hour on the BBC says to the lesbian guest “Well let’s talk about that particular term ‘men’ that you use.” As if it’s some weird specialized jargon, some tendentious peculiar pejorative thing to say. What are we supposed to call them? What’s the permissible word now? Do we need to warn the audience before we say it? What does “Woman’s Hour” even mean???

Deep breaths. Push the play button again. McGovern, slowly and distinctly: “Who are you referring to?”

Fucking hell. Can you imagine being KB in that moment? It would be so tempting to shout: “This is Woman’s Hour; who are you referring to you brainless subservient buffoon?!!”

KB was admirably disciplined.

I’m referring to all male people.

McGovern asks, slowly and ponderously, “Are you also referring to those who identify as trans women?”

KB: I am.

NM: Why.

KB: Well I think a dating app is a good example of why. So – consider the dating app, the lesbian dating app – the sort of people, however you want to describe them, they’re male, born male in male bodies – now I’m a lesbian and I go onto that dating app – my criterion is – well I would prefer to meet somebody without a penis – because I’m a lesbian. If I go onto the app and try to set up my profile and say “I’d like to meet somebody, oh I don’t know, female, or somebody who’s a biological woman – a real woman, in my mind, I’d be booted off the app and the man would be allowed to stay. And the reason for that is my position would be considered bigoted and unkind and transphobic, but most importantly, it would be considered to be Not Inclusive. And I think that’s worth looking at, for a second. So, me – and other women, as lesbians, we’ll assert our boundaries, and that boundary will exclude male people from our dating pool. But that position, in and of itself, is deemed to be a transphobic position…The same thing is happening for gay men as well, that if you assert your exclusive same-sex orientation – homosexuality – that is considered to be something which is “not inclusive” and which is bigoted and transphobic so that’s why we as an organization were celebrating and cracking open the champagne. You know because it allows us to – we can’t do our work as an organization unless we can clarify so what does sex mean –

McGovern breaks in there:

Well let’s talk about these aspects, and some of course that are listening may find what you’re saying very offensive

Hey guess what Nuala McGovern, I find what you’re saying very offensive. I find the fact that you’re saying it very offensive. I find this sick joke of a program called Woman’s Hour contorting itself to bully women for saying that men are men VERY OFFENSIVE.

and some of course that are listening may find what you’re saying very offensive – do you ever use the term “trans woman”?

What kind of question is that? Are we required to use it? Socially, morally, be kindly? Why is BBC Woman’s Hour scolding a lesbian for calling men men instead of calling men trans women? I would really like to know!

The rest later, if I have the stomach for it.