Oops, there goes the baby
Again with this. This time at Feminist Philosophers, in a post about two posts discussing Germaine Greer.
There’s a lot wrong with it, but this one claim is especially infuriating (as well as all too familiar):
‘But I don’t get why gender identity is such a big deal’ – Sometimes, lurking in the background of these kind of criticisms of trans feminism is the suggesti[on] that we probably shouldn’t make such a fuss over gender identity. For [those] who have a relatively limited sense of or feelings toward their own gender identity, it can sometimes be hard to understand why some people think it’s so important. (Insert obligatory grumbling about ‘identity politics gone mad’.) As trans people have argued, though, this may be one way in which we experience cis privilege. Cis people have often never had to care that much or think that much about gender identity, but that’s part of what it is to be cis – we have gender identity everyone expects of us, our gender identity has never been a source of marginalization, fear, discrimination, or shame for us, etc.
Are you kidding me?
If our gender identity has never been a source of marginalization, fear, discrimination, or shame, then what the hell has feminism ever been about? Why is it a thing? Why haven’t women and men always been on an equal footing, everywhere in the world?
Oh you poor thing. Let me mansplan that for you.
You see, you’re a girl. Girls are girly. As long as you think, act and identify as a girly girl you need never fear marginalisation, shame, rape, death, being under paid, underemployed or anything bad! See, you’ll be placed on a pedestal, protected and worshipped – just as long as you stay right where you were put and keep on being a girly girl made from sugar and spice and all things nice.
/s
‘mansplan’…Aha! A revealing Freudian slip, perchance?
Otherwise – *simpers* – Ooh, thank you kind man. I don’t know how fortunate I really am.
method actor – putting myself in character.
No. Are you fucking kidding me?
I can’t believe I’m reading this. I wouldn’t have believed it two months ago.
Anyone AMAB who thinks cis women have not faced discrimination, shaming, fear, etc because of their gender is simply not ready to transition. Simply because they don’t know what they are letting themselves in for.
But this is women even saying this? Self-described feminists? LOLWUTTHEHELL
Samantha, I think you have a very good point there. I have recently wondered, perhaps churlishly, if trans women, having lived (even if unhappily) as men for some significant part of their lives have soaked up enough innate male privileged through chameleon socialisation that they can translate that into the quite assertive activism we tend to see. Perhaps not. Individual behaviour varies enough that making gender based distinctions is probably unhelpful.
Samantha Vimes:
I would agree with that, but would also note that the author didn’t say “gender,” but rather “gender identity.”
Nate, I’m sure in your *extensive lived experience as a cis woman*, you have, in your attempts to live up to or live down your gender identity, encountered someone who tried to shame you about your degree of expressed femininity. However, if you haven’,t I assure you it is common.
(Yeah, Nate, if you are as male as your name suggests, shut the fuck up, women are talking about being women and you don’t know Jill about it.)
Wait, this is confusing. Facing discrimination, shaming, fear, etc because of my gender is what feminism is for. But facing discrimination, shaming, fear, etc because of my gender identity is what trans activism is for? But if my gender and gender identity match, then the discrimination, shaming, fear, etc because of my gender is somehow cis-privilege? It’s a privilege to accept that you are subordinate? Cis-privilege outweighs or cancels gender dis-privilege? Intersectionality only goes one way?
I have been oppressed for being a female human. My identity does not change that at all and never will, its irrelevant to why women are oppressed. If it were about gender identity people would ask for your pronouns before deciding to pay you less or what have you.
Person on the Internet to me: “You have the space and privilege to explore and express your femininity and your feminine aesthetic any way you want, because you can do it – after all, that is what privilege means.”
Me: “No, actually, I don’t. I don’t HAVE “femininity”. It’s something that has been forced on me. I feel I am expected to perform a group of behaviours labelled under “femininity” in particular ways in order to be socially acceptable. I do lots of painful, time consuming and expensive things I don’t want to do just to avoid ostracism, like waxing my legs for example. I’ve spent my whole life hating my body because it doesn’t look like a body in a magazine and I’ve spent my whole life hating my face and covering it with make up to try and avoid being ugly. I think it’s something that’s been forced on me due to my biology. It’s something I’ve been punished for every time I’ve stepped out of line.
But hey, thanks for lecturing me on my own personal experience.”
Person on the Internet: “So just step outside of your shoes for two seconds, and thinking how it would feel like when you’re a trans woman? HOW MUCH more, would you feel the need to conform because then it would not just be about you “hating” your body – it would be about people murdering you for seeing you as a man.”
Me: . . .
I know what you mean, but surely the point she is making is that the fact of describing yourself as a woman or girl has never, in itself, invited ridicule, violence or ostracization. If you live quietly (or willingly) within the gender constraints socially prescribed for women, it may even win you praise and status. That is not an option for trans women.
I always shudder in anticipation when reading something like this. Here is my proposed translation:
Dear cis women, dear trans people, dear everyone,
Your presence at the upcoming Opression Olympics is kindly requested. Onlookers are reminded to bring their popcorn!
If I wanted to write such an invitation myself, I couldn’t do a better job. Truly, it’s a work of a genius.
It starts with (1), which in itself is nothing more than a delicate innuendo: oh no, it’s not that cis people don’t care about gender identity, it’s only that they *often* do not have to care *that much* (as who? As trans people, obviously! You want to quarrell?) But then (2) comes down like a hammer blow: your “gender identity has *never* been a source of marginalization, fear, discrimination, or shame”. Ah, whether you are male or female, there is practically a guarantee that after reading this you will immediately see red… and so the Games begin.
Alright, it’s either a masterpiece or a case of extremely sloppy writing. Hmm, given that masterpieces are very rare… [thinking]
Pinkeen, what if you changed that from gender to racial nouns?
” . . . describing yourself as a “negro” has never, in itself, invited ridicule, violence or ostracization. If you live quietly (or willingly) within the racial constraints socially prescribed for people of colour, it may even win you praise and status.”
It sounds . . . kind of wrong, doesn’t it?
“fact of describing yourself as a woman or girl has never, in itself, invited ridicule, violence or ostracization.”
“You can’t join us, you’re a GIRL!”
“No girls allowed!”
“GROSS! A GIRL!”
“You’re too ugly to be a girl.”
“Women are just holes.”
“Go make me a sammich.”
Uh-huh. Nope. As soon as a sexist male GUESSES you are female, even if you didn’t describe yourself as such, you’re gonna get kicked the fuck around. You’ll be groped by strangers, excluded from jobs, had your career counselling altered, not get a call on your resume because it has a woman’s name on, get mocked online by strangers because you had a female-sounding handle (or treated with respect until you clarify your sex in a conversation).
Also, given that the gender constraints for women amount to “Be a physically attractive doormat”, almost no one lives in the constraints and while one may be praised for being a doormat, a doormat never has high status, even if they think they do.
Is sexism really so invisible that someone can be a regular at this blog and need stuff like this told to them?
Emily, I think your point only makes sense if you believe transsexuality and transracialism are similar or the same. I doubt many people would agree with you, but I guess it gets to the heart of it.
Samantha, trans women are subject to the same problems that affect non-trans women, but with the added problems of being discriminated against and reviled simply for calling themselves women. I think that is the point. So not just ‘no girls allowed’ (in this game played by boy children and which, of course, happens the other way around too), but ‘what the hell are you doing in this bathroom/women’s college/changing room/women’s group/those clothes’?
@Pinkeen
But if non-trans women face problems due to being women, how does “our gender identity has never been a source of marginalization, fear, discrimination, or shame for us” make any sense?
Not good enough, Pinkeen. You can’t merely re-assert that it’s not the same thing. You have to argue why you believe it’s completely different to say such a thing about a person’s race, but not the disfavored gender category they belong to.
Oh come on, people. This is an extract from a post – that I wrote – that takes pains to distinguish gender identity, gender expression, and gender role. And *of course* I don’t deny for one second that cis women face oppression as women. They face oppression due to the gender role that is imposed on them, they face oppression because their expected gender expressions are devalued, etc. Basically, women face oppression because people treat women like shit. No one is denying that. But I don’t think that most cis women face oppression *because of their gender identity* – which is what the quote above is saying. In fact, I think my life is quite a bit easier because I identify as a woman (the gender identity everyone expects of me). If I didn’t – if I was gender queer or a trans man who passes as a woman – I’d face a whole other barrel of problems, in addition to being treated like a woman. Saying that my specific *gender identity* isn’t a source of oppression isn’t saying that women don’t face extreme oppression.
Maybe you all should actually go and read the original post before you attribute all sorts of straw man nonsense I don’t think. That way, you could engage with the actual things people are actually saying.
@Pinkeen,
“Samantha, trans women are subject to the same problems that affect non-trans women, but with the added problems of being discriminated against and reviled simply for calling themselves women.”
I think the point that’s being made is “being discriminated against and reviled simply for calling themselves women” *is* one of the problems that affect non-trans women, and your sentence structure blatantly denies this.
I’m becoming increasing wary of the phrase “cis-privilege”. Put bluntly, the roles our society ascribes to girls and women are shitty roles. Though certainly in some cultures, there are some women who accept and even enjoy some of these roles; many do not (not even mentioning those cultures where the role itself is to live a life of inhuman/torturous conditions from birth to death). The shittiness of the roles, coupled with the lack of “opt-out” options, is an unquestionable source of suffering.
What I think the phrase “cis-privilege” is driving at is how, no matter what level of shittiness of female roles a given society enforces; trans women are subject to all the same shittiness, PLUS, in some cases, an utter lack of solidarity with other women experiencing the same. Not just lack of solidarity, but treatment that comes across as cold ostracization: extending the earlier metaphor; trans women stand out in the rain, with a a “no girls allowed” sign on the luxurious clubhouse to the left and a “vagina-having females only” sign on the shoddy rundown shack to the right. Nevertheless, I can absolutely sympathize with the umbrage women in the latter would take at men hollering at them about how “cis-privileged” they’re being for not welcoming trans women into their space.
magicalersatz – yes I know you made a distinction between gender roles and gender “identity,” but I don’t think the distinction does the work you want it to. I don’t really buy the distinction itself, and even if I did I still don’t think your claims stand up.
I do agree that trans people face a whole other barrel of problems, but that’s just it, they’re other problems. People need to articulate those problems without erasing the ones that go with being women.
Yes, exactly that.
Cis privilege exists and it’s a real thing, but it generally is enjoyed only by cis men. It’s a flavor of male privilege. But calling it that would make it harder to deflect rage toward feminist women.
What Chris said. I’d go further and say that what people call “cis” privilege is not a flavor of anything. It is male privilege in a patriarchal culture.
And women don’t have it.
I suppose one source – or the source – of the confusion about this is that trans women can get a multiplier effect (to misuse a term of art). They get shit for being trans, or they get shit for being women, or if they’re really lucky they get shit for both.
But the problem is that that then somehow becomes women’s fault, or feminism’s fault. Too many trans women displace their anger onto feminism, a displacement that tends to piss off feminists. If we could somehow stop that trend then we could all get together in that shack that Kevin mentioned and turn it into a fucking palace.
Without feeling the need to tear down the other palace; in fact, we might join them together to make one big happy species. (I know, I’m dreaming again. I’ll wake up in a few minutes).
Magicalersatz–I read your entire post and I disagree with what you’re actually saying, in your own words. Not a straw man, your specific words.
If you didn’t mean to convey the meaning that people are picking up, please consider why they’re picking that up. It’s not a willful misreading. It may be that your thought wasn’t as cogent as it could be, or not expressed sufficiently clearly.
It appears that the author missed the memo about how anti-essentialist constructionists are old, outdated second-wave feminists who are behind the times.
“If we could somehow stop that trend then we could all get together in that shack that Kevin mentioned and turn it into a fucking palace.”
Yeah… problem is, us guys kind of took all the building material for our clubhouse. Oh sure, there’s plenty to go around (hell, we’ve got 3-palaces-worth in the attached storage facility alone – well, yeah, of course we have an attached storage facility), but, see, we also have this thing about having the nicest clubhouse around.
(tongue-in-cheek, by the way, to reinforce point; no matter what peace is made between trans women and feminists – male privilege will still overshadow all)
Plus, I want to make clear that my metaphor was not meant as any statement of relative construction capabilities!
Kevin’s forgetting the First Rule of Man Club.
I think I get what you’re saying, Magicalersatz. If I “identify with” my gender (ie the gender expression that is “normal” for my sex) I won’t get shit for stepping outside the box. As a female, I’ll suffer for being one of the people thought to belong in the box, and I’ll be stuffed into the box whether I like it or not.
But anyone who goes running in the direction of the other box, or tries to climb into it, gets special shit for that, whether trans or not. Being not-trans doesn’t mean one “identifies with ” the box.
I’m not arguing that non-trans women have the same problems trans women do. Trans people get worlds of shit just for being trans; nobody here disputes that. Our problem is with the analysis. For starters, this category, “cis,” just doesn’t work for many of us.
Box, shack, clubhouse, spa full of pink towels…whatEVER.
OB @ 28 –
Yes, I said something similar once on one of the FTB blogs (I think – damn alzheimers is creeping up on me I’m sure). Women who transition to being men are punished for pretending to be superior to their true station in life. Men who transition to women are punished for being traitors to their kind and are obviously inferior anyway or they wouldn’t want to be women anyway. Therefore they deserve the abuse, beatings and rape because since they want to be women so desperately they can have the worst of what gets meted out to the bitchez. On top of that, a trans women might seduce a straight guy which would trick him into gay sex, turning him forever! Ewwww! Just the thought of that happening obviously justifies the bad shit that gets heaped on these people. (I don’t have to spell out that I’m not expressing my own feelings here do I?)
What I don’t get is why the anger of some trans people and their supporters gets directed at women and feminists especially. You can understand anger at the likes of Greer who have openly mocked and attacked trans women. But why attack the work of her and other feminists (some of whom have been supportive of trans rights) who have at great sacrifice to themselves created the space to even have the conversation in the first place? Is it just because women are a soft target for the anger and represent no more danger than a cutting reply; as opposed to attacking fascists, mra’s, gamergaters, big dumb drunk macho guys in pubs where the confrontation would stand a chance of getting really nasty in the physical world?
Thank you, Kevin, you are correct and I thank you for hearing me.
Just for example, as a geek, I spend a lot of time in male spaces. More often than not, when I am in those spaces, I am frequently given “honorary male” status. However, this politeness can change and end suddenly should I ever effectively say, “I’m a woman,” directly or indirectly.
Other women in male spaces get gender policed for being too feminine– if your clothing and so on say, “I’m a woman,” you’re considered and outsider.
I’ve also been socially isolated among women who define femininity in a way that excludes me.
I know a cis woman who has had women murmur that she doesn’t belong in the ladies’ room right in front of her. She’s deep voiced, stocky, and doesn’t wear make-up, but she was wearing earrings that day and was quite upset by the gender policing.
It’s not that I don’t get that trans women are given a very hard time, but I don’t think that denying what shit people AFAB who still present as female get is helpful.