Jones’ point is, I suppose, in regard to the people who point out that Everard was targeted for her sex, not her gender identity. I don’t think that’s derailing, either.
Owen Jones is one of those people whose constant display of moral passion on a variety of subjects makes one wish to disagree with him even when he is, on occasion, right (as he is not in this case). I can’t stand an ‘I’m moraller than thou’ attitude. It is bullying, no more.
Sort of tangentially related, but only on the fringes. I completed my yearly Title IX training today, and it was interesting to note that most of the incidents they showed (none of them real; none of them even people but some sort of Toy Story type animation) was a woman abusing a man. Dating violence? Woman abused man. Domestic violence? Woman on man. Workplace sexual harassment? Woman on man. Stalking? Woman stalking man. The places where there were women it was not clear if they were in the scene as victim or perp.
They used a lot of statistics from VAWA, but made every effort to make sure they never said the word “woman”, except in the one place where they noted their statistics were from VAWA, giving the name of the act. After that, it was just VAWA. You could go through the entire training without ever getting the sense that women were ever abused by a man, but that men were abused on a regular basis by women. I guess I should find it a positive thing that they did not give any of the women name tags that said “Karen” and the acronym TERF never came up.
…it was interesting to note that most of the incidents they showed (none of them real; none of them even people but some sort of Toy Story type animation) was a woman abusing a man.
Bending over backwards to avoid the inevitable “Not all Men” backlash?
Trying to keep the men interested (like briefings for Trump having lots of mentions of Trump)? Oh, look, we’re the good guys! YAY!
I bet if they’d had even a single scenario showing a male instigator, many of the men attending would have claimed it was ALL and ONLY male instigation being shown. Unfortunately, this means that the people who need to hear the message, men, won’t, because the presentation wasn’t about anything men do. To women. Ever.
iknklast #6: But of course, from the point of view of a great many males, if not most of them, alas, it is much worse for a man to be bullied by a woman than for a woman to be bullied by a man. The latter is part of the natural or divine order, the former is against nature in their minds.
@6 not quite as egregious as your experience but I remember years ago attending a building safety induction where every example of an unsafe behaviour was something women did, or did much more often than men (the two I remember were ‘unsuitable footwear’ and ‘bringing in your own electrical device’ (ie a heater for your workspace, since as we know office temperatures are set for the comfort of the average man and too low for the average woman)). I did actually report this as a safety concern, per our office procedure, as the effect of using only these examples was to suggest that only women do unsafe things, so any men in the induction could walk away thinking he never did unsafe things and had no reason to consider his own behaviour or that of other men.
Just to pick one thing out of many, since it’s germane to the discussion in another post about skeptics brainwormed by this issue:
Also, citing Kathleen Stock is an insta-nope from me.
PZ has said that he hasn’t and doesn’t plan to read her book. Now he’s piling on guilt by association, based on his opinion of that book he hasn’t read. Very skeptical, PZ. Most rational. Bigly freethinking. Humanist of the Year 2009.
Linking PZ is an insta-nope from me ever since his atrocious treatment of the Rebecca Tuval affair revealed him as a spineless and unprincipled ringleader of the thoughtless mob he’d been nurturing for so long. Since then I refuse to even give him a click. Fuck that guy.
We can all now rest assured without clicking that PZ has the worst possible opinion of the issues surrounding the culture of misogyny leading to and remaining in the aftermath of the Sarah Everard case.
“Expecting the rights and safety of trans women to be respected is not synonymous with denying cis women any preventative measures.” is where this Myers dude misses the point. Allowing men into women only spaces denies women a preventative measure *every single time* and it has nothing to do with respecting the rights of trans people. If this Myers dude is going to say Kathleen Stock is wrong, he’s going to have to do better than that. Also, if you are going to have an “insta-nope” or whatever cutesy dismissal slang of the week you are going to use for someone, then it behooves you not to cite the person (which is not an “insta-nope”), go on argue a single point, and then pretend you’re dismissive by default.
Also, on the subject of brainwormed skeptics; just because God doesn’t exist in someone’s Land Of Make Believe doesn’t mean they don’t have one, or that it’s not any more of a nonsensical minefield than any other True Believer. :P
It’s probably not very skeptical of me, but I don’t intend to click on the Pharyngula link. I’ll do the “take your word for it” thing, @latsot. If he were presenting any sort of *evidence* for his point, I would be interested.
And I certainly hope for OJ’s sake that the pearls he is always clutching are imitation because otherwise he would be depopulating Oyster Bay all by his lonesome.
I honestly could not get past that bizarre picture that PZ uses of himself now, to read the article. He looked 1000% better back when he combed his hair and didn’t color his beard to try to hide the gray. I’m sure that the article was just pandering to the commentariat, regardless.
James Garnett, you made me look, and for that I will never forgive you. ;-)
You’re right, the picture is bizarre. He’s spent so much time trying to be the “cool dude” to the kids, he now thinks he wants to look like them, I guess. Back in our day, he’d be hanging out at the video arcade saying “Cool, dude” or some such slang, to show how much he was in tune with the youth. In my parents’ day, it would have been the ice cream parlor.
There are always those teachers who try to act like the kids. This is the first generation I’ve known that didn’t mock that teacher, but instead cite them as proof that their delusions are true.
Just to clarify, as far as slang goes, I use the word ‘dude’ in the earlier Western definition, before the Southern California surfers appropriated it as a term of comraderie and the subsequent adoption into modern parlance as the generic and banal ‘guy’ or ‘bloke’ (et al). According to my dictionary it means ‘fop’ which is another essentially obsolete word. Just goes to show how words change over time or fall into disuse. Dudes are not ‘cool’ in my book, and I consider it an insult, but my dictionary is from 1948 and outdated, which probably makes me outdated as well. ;)
This Myers dude does seem to be a dude to me though, however it’s defined.
In my experience, it’s been men way more often than women doing unsafe things in chemistry labs. For example, men tend to be considerably messier. There could be hazardous chemicals in that mess. If it’s on the floor it’s a slip hazard.
…okay, you animals, I admit that I clicked. I even scrolled down the article until I saw the picture. Ironically, given the subject’s reputation, I get a lot of divorced Christian youth camp counsellor vibes.
Okay, so PZ looks like he should be playing pennywhistile in a Pogues cover band now. That’s one thing, but the commentariat claiming that the Guardian is transphobic makes me truly wonder if the veil between worlds has grown thinner and I am drifting back and forth between alternate universes.
Going back many comments, iknklast was that training a ready-made just add water and stir training? If so can we see the bullet points somewhere? In other words is there a link to more information? I’m gobsmacked and enraged that such training exists.
The training comes from some company, and there don’t seem to be bullet points. It was a video made by people who make these for educational institutions.
Well I’d love to know more if you can find out more. It sounds grotesque. Imagine the outcry if companies were doing anti-racism training that used examples of black on white violence only.
why is this murder now “about” trans people? Is EVERY thing that happens about “trans people”? That is rather breathtaking?
It is not derailing a discussion on male violence to bring up the importance of safe spaces for women.
There are a lot of young, scared women, too.
Jones’ point is, I suppose, in regard to the people who point out that Everard was targeted for her sex, not her gender identity. I don’t think that’s derailing, either.
Owen Jones is one of those people whose constant display of moral passion on a variety of subjects makes one wish to disagree with him even when he is, on occasion, right (as he is not in this case). I can’t stand an ‘I’m moraller than thou’ attitude. It is bullying, no more.
But-but-but “safe spaces for women” is a dog whistle used by dinosaurs to <hoard rights.
Sort of tangentially related, but only on the fringes. I completed my yearly Title IX training today, and it was interesting to note that most of the incidents they showed (none of them real; none of them even people but some sort of Toy Story type animation) was a woman abusing a man. Dating violence? Woman abused man. Domestic violence? Woman on man. Workplace sexual harassment? Woman on man. Stalking? Woman stalking man. The places where there were women it was not clear if they were in the scene as victim or perp.
They used a lot of statistics from VAWA, but made every effort to make sure they never said the word “woman”, except in the one place where they noted their statistics were from VAWA, giving the name of the act. After that, it was just VAWA. You could go through the entire training without ever getting the sense that women were ever abused by a man, but that men were abused on a regular basis by women. I guess I should find it a positive thing that they did not give any of the women name tags that said “Karen” and the acronym TERF never came up.
Bending over backwards to avoid the inevitable “Not all Men” backlash?
Trying to keep the men interested (like briefings for Trump having lots of mentions of Trump)? Oh, look, we’re the good guys! YAY!
I bet if they’d had even a single scenario showing a male instigator, many of the men attending would have claimed it was ALL and ONLY male instigation being shown. Unfortunately, this means that the people who need to hear the message, men, won’t, because the presentation wasn’t about anything men do. To women. Ever.
iknklast #6: But of course, from the point of view of a great many males, if not most of them, alas, it is much worse for a man to be bullied by a woman than for a woman to be bullied by a man. The latter is part of the natural or divine order, the former is against nature in their minds.
@6 not quite as egregious as your experience but I remember years ago attending a building safety induction where every example of an unsafe behaviour was something women did, or did much more often than men (the two I remember were ‘unsuitable footwear’ and ‘bringing in your own electrical device’ (ie a heater for your workspace, since as we know office temperatures are set for the comfort of the average man and too low for the average woman)). I did actually report this as a safety concern, per our office procedure, as the effect of using only these examples was to suggest that only women do unsafe things, so any men in the induction could walk away thinking he never did unsafe things and had no reason to consider his own behaviour or that of other men.
Looky here at PZ’s take: https://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/
Just to pick one thing out of many, since it’s germane to the discussion in another post about skeptics brainwormed by this issue:
PZ has said that he hasn’t and doesn’t plan to read her book. Now he’s piling on guilt by association, based on his opinion of that book he hasn’t read. Very skeptical, PZ. Most rational. Bigly freethinking. Humanist of the Year 2009.
Linking PZ is an insta-nope from me ever since his atrocious treatment of the Rebecca Tuval affair revealed him as a spineless and unprincipled ringleader of the thoughtless mob he’d been nurturing for so long. Since then I refuse to even give him a click. Fuck that guy.
Seth,
Agreed. I only hate-clicked him this once, honest ;)
And I’m going to ignore you even more by posting the full link, which I screwed up last time:
https://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2021/10/03/twisting-the-story-to-fit-your-weird-obsession-is-disrespecting-the-victim/
We can all now rest assured without clicking that PZ has the worst possible opinion of the issues surrounding the culture of misogyny leading to and remaining in the aftermath of the Sarah Everard case.
Gah – not “ignore”, “annoy”.
I’m all over the place today, getting used to new medication.
“Expecting the rights and safety of trans women to be respected is not synonymous with denying cis women any preventative measures.” is where this Myers dude misses the point. Allowing men into women only spaces denies women a preventative measure *every single time* and it has nothing to do with respecting the rights of trans people. If this Myers dude is going to say Kathleen Stock is wrong, he’s going to have to do better than that. Also, if you are going to have an “insta-nope” or whatever cutesy dismissal slang of the week you are going to use for someone, then it behooves you not to cite the person (which is not an “insta-nope”), go on argue a single point, and then pretend you’re dismissive by default.
Also, on the subject of brainwormed skeptics; just because God doesn’t exist in someone’s Land Of Make Believe doesn’t mean they don’t have one, or that it’s not any more of a nonsensical minefield than any other True Believer. :P
twiliter:
Correct. And I’m calling PZ “this Myers dude” from now on.
It’s probably not very skeptical of me, but I don’t intend to click on the Pharyngula link. I’ll do the “take your word for it” thing, @latsot. If he were presenting any sort of *evidence* for his point, I would be interested.
And I certainly hope for OJ’s sake that the pearls he is always clutching are imitation because otherwise he would be depopulating Oyster Bay all by his lonesome.
Well I’m trying not to use derogatory nicknames now that we are beyond the Trump era, but sometimes I fail. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Michael @17, I try to read some stupid shit every once in a while, even if it’s only a couple sentences; it helps me to appreciate the good stuff. ;)
If only…
If you do decide to read the Pharyngula post, make sure you have your TRA bingo card ready. I completed mine when he got to “mumsnet”.
I honestly could not get past that bizarre picture that PZ uses of himself now, to read the article. He looked 1000% better back when he combed his hair and didn’t color his beard to try to hide the gray. I’m sure that the article was just pandering to the commentariat, regardless.
James Garnett, you made me look, and for that I will never forgive you. ;-)
You’re right, the picture is bizarre. He’s spent so much time trying to be the “cool dude” to the kids, he now thinks he wants to look like them, I guess. Back in our day, he’d be hanging out at the video arcade saying “Cool, dude” or some such slang, to show how much he was in tune with the youth. In my parents’ day, it would have been the ice cream parlor.
There are always those teachers who try to act like the kids. This is the first generation I’ve known that didn’t mock that teacher, but instead cite them as proof that their delusions are true.
Just to clarify, as far as slang goes, I use the word ‘dude’ in the earlier Western definition, before the Southern California surfers appropriated it as a term of comraderie and the subsequent adoption into modern parlance as the generic and banal ‘guy’ or ‘bloke’ (et al). According to my dictionary it means ‘fop’ which is another essentially obsolete word. Just goes to show how words change over time or fall into disuse. Dudes are not ‘cool’ in my book, and I consider it an insult, but my dictionary is from 1948 and outdated, which probably makes me outdated as well. ;)
This Myers dude does seem to be a dude to me though, however it’s defined.
@6 and @9
In my experience, it’s been men way more often than women doing unsafe things in chemistry labs. For example, men tend to be considerably messier. There could be hazardous chemicals in that mess. If it’s on the floor it’s a slip hazard.
iknklast@24, sorry! If only brain bleach existed.
…okay, you animals, I admit that I clicked. I even scrolled down the article until I saw the picture. Ironically, given the subject’s reputation, I get a lot of divorced Christian youth camp counsellor vibes.
Okay, so PZ looks like he should be playing pennywhistile in a Pogues cover band now. That’s one thing, but the commentariat claiming that the Guardian is transphobic makes me truly wonder if the veil between worlds has grown thinner and I am drifting back and forth between alternate universes.
Going to that page also makes me feel like getting a can of Raid and going on an arachnocidal killing spree. :P
Going back many comments, iknklast was that training a ready-made just add water and stir training? If so can we see the bullet points somewhere? In other words is there a link to more information? I’m gobsmacked and enraged that such training exists.
Hmm, I thought this was the look P.Z. was going for.
The training comes from some company, and there don’t seem to be bullet points. It was a video made by people who make these for educational institutions.
Well I’d love to know more if you can find out more. It sounds grotesque. Imagine the outcry if companies were doing anti-racism training that used examples of black on white violence only.
How strange to go over to PZ’s place and find that they all think the Guardian is TERF Central.
(And that photo? Is he ok?)