TBF, Kaveney is a decent poet as well as a narcissist. I’ve met him in person back in the oughts and honestly he didn’t even come close to passing as a woman, hence the necessity for him to fantasize about it and insist that others play along. Sorry Roz, the cotton ceiling you go on about is just women telling you that they’re not interested in sex with men pretending to be women.
Roz Kaveney has been *very* influential in the SF/Fantasy world – she used to co-edit the influential “Interzone” magazine, she wrote numerous analytical articles about the genre, and she wrote several non-fiction books about the genre for I.B. Tauris. Certainly, as a teenager interested in the genre, I remember seeing Kaveney’s writings. I knew she was a transwoman after seeing her being interviewed on the BBC – I remember she had a very, very masculine voice, which stayed in my memory.
And in the same way John W. Campbell used his influence to promote Dianetics, “psi powers” and the “Dean Drive” among science fiction writers and readers, Kaveney used her influence to promote gender self-identification among that community.
Kaveney is a friend of Neil Gaiman, and I suspect her influence is responsible for Gaiman’s support for gender self-identification (Gaiman retweeting Laurie Penny’s conspiracy theories about GC women being fascists, etc.)
Anglo-American science fiction and fantasy is currently dominated by writers and reviewers who are aggressive supporters of gender self-identification : Gaiman, N. K. Jemisin (“TERFs are the polar opposite of feminist”), Charles Stross, Jeannette Ng, Cheryl Morgan, Elizabeth Sandifer, Farah Mendlesohn. Any SF/Fantasy writer who dares to utter even the mildest dissent from the GSI dogma is hounded without mercy (J. K. Rowling, Gareth Roberts).
The genres I loved have been taken over by GSI ideologues like Kaveney.
It’s why I only read the old SF now (Joanna Russ, Frank Herbert, Olaf Stapledon).
Trans activists have inserted themselves into SF/F just as they’ve inserted themselves into feminism, making use of so-called “queer theory” as a way to do so. The “new wave” of SF/F that started back in the 1960s opened up science fiction to formerly taboo subjects touching on sex, and then the fiction and non-fiction of writers such as Ursula K. Le Guin, Joanna Russ, and Alice Sheldon (aka James Tiptree, Jr.) and other fan writers like Susan Wood brought feminism to the SF/F genre in the 1970s. It was an interesting as well as fractious time given how there was still plenty of good old fashioned rocket ship sexism in SF/F. Now we have some new fashioned sexism in the form of transgender politics to contemplate and deal with. Oh boy.
As for Kaveney’s influence, IMO he’s more relevant in the U.K. than the U.S. What’s influenced SF/F as a genre in the U.S. isn’t any particular person, but the impact of social media on the internet with its mob mentality bringing its slogans, flags, and the like to steer the conversation. (SF/F fanzines had their share of abusive types too of course, as well as longer-form criticisms that rose above that sort of thing.) The result has been a schism in the genre with the pro-trans side shunning anyone who isn’t with them and the other side that has mostly stayed silent in the face of things like twitter pile-ons and the banning of those who Say Bad Things from social events like SF conventions. The sad state of politics in the U.S. certainly has contributed to all this as well.
I too am not pleased with this state of affairs, although there are still plenty of SF/F writers out there who write works I enjoy reading who aren’t into transgender subject matter or at least aren’t jerks about it. I do feel sympathy for author Jo Walton, who a few years ago was about to have a novel published that dealt with actual sex change in a fairly near SF/F future set in the Solar System, but it was pulled from publication when some trans activists objected to how she portrayed the female sex as being a real and consequential thing, and that didn’t set at all well with those who insist that it’s gender that matters, not sex. Walton doesn’t even want to discuss this now, and really, who can blame her?
“What’s influenced SF/F as a genre in the U.S. isn’t any particular person, but the impact of social media on the internet with its mob mentality bringing its slogans, flags, and the like to steer the conversation…The result has been a schism in the genre with the pro-trans side shunning anyone who isn’t with them and the other side that has mostly stayed silent in the face of things like twitter pile-ons and the banning of those who Say Bad Things from social events like SF conventions. The sad state of politics in the U.S. certainly has contributed to all this as well.”
That’s an interesting (if dispiriting) analysis. I’ve been hearing horror stories about how conformist the US publishing industry has been for years, and it seems social media is indeed the culprit.
I liked some of Jo Walton’s short stories, so it’s a shame the book in question (“Poor Relations”) was withdrawn in the face of public bullying.
As for Jeannette Ng, she’s a nasty piece of work. Here is Ng attacking Joanna Cherry:
*”What a beautiful photo of inclusion. Fuck TERFs, indeed.”*
N. K. Jemisin’s TERF comment (#3): *sigh*. And I like her writing. I have several of her books. She was a guest of honor at WisCon a bunch of years ago.
Jo Walton is a regular at WisCon.
In 2019, I saw hints of trans ideology infesting WisCon. E.g. “I am a woman, dammit!” said (at a panel (topic of panel forgotten)) by a guy who transitioned in middle age. He’s been active in running the con for over a decade now, even before he transitioned. He’s currently involved in, or maybe even “in charge” of, registration.
WisCon bills itself as the world’s “premier feminist science fiction convention”. Once WisCon gets back from hiatus, we’ll see if it managed to stop the infestation. I have my doubts, considering how they handled the Jim Frenkel affair, and some other incidents I’ve heard about.
Yeah, Jemisin’s reification of feminism as a set of sexist stereotypes is not radical. No, you aren’t a woman if you’re a man that puts on makeup, really. Relatedly, see Prince about that.
I do feel sorry for Jo Walton, who these days seems to avoid politics online. The “Karen” meme that’s infested social media and targets white middle aged women silences so many women.
I used to go to Wiscon myself back in the 1990s and 2000s, and it was a fun and thoughtful event that was centered around feminism. These days Wiscon is more centered around queer theory and social justice in general, and has also become very intolerant of differing political opinions. I doubt the hiatus will change that.
“These days Wiscon is more centered around queer theory and social justice in general, and has also become very intolerant of differing political opinions.”
Time was when SF writers with strongly different political opinions could still be friends and admirers of each others’ work (think Ursula Le Guin and Gene Wolfe, Jerry Pournelle and Norman Spinrad, or even H. G. Wells and G. K. Chesterton). I suspect the younger generation of fandom is more conformist and oversensitive now.
Side note: Would has anyone here read “The End of the World is Flat” by Simon Edge? Would it fall into the SF/F genre?
I used to go to Wiscon myself back in the 1990s and 2000s, and it was a fun and thoughtful event that was centered around feminism. These days Wiscon is more centered around queer theory and social justice in general, and has also become very intolerant of differing political opinions. I doubt the hiatus will change that.
Stating a belief that he is a peer of Keats, Heine, and Catullus, and that he is the tall poppy others wish to cut down, while making a pretence at being modest enough to find that belief embarrassing, while aldo admitting that this entire thing is a knowing humblebrag. Such densely layered narcissism in a single tweet is a rare find.
Bloody poetry, man. It means whatever you think it means. The tweet is full of references to height – “getting above” theirself, being a “tall poppy”, being on a mountain, and most importantly, being able to look 3 men in the face – men are generally taller than women, so this indicates that Roz is also tall. Roz is expressing the existential terror experienced by every trans person of not passing as they’s chosen gender because of them’s stature. Deep!
@15 Maybe the next step in trans cosmetic mutilation er, disfiguration er, elective surgery. Take an inch or two out of their femurs and fibulas, or perhaps a vertebrae or three. The lengths to which they will go is a horror show. This put me off my breakfast this morning, truly heartbreaking >> https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xjDQyJgUpKw&feature=youtu.be Exulansic explains the tragedy.
What a heavenly vision, so comforting. :P
TBF, Kaveney is a decent poet as well as a narcissist. I’ve met him in person back in the oughts and honestly he didn’t even come close to passing as a woman, hence the necessity for him to fantasize about it and insist that others play along. Sorry Roz, the cotton ceiling you go on about is just women telling you that they’re not interested in sex with men pretending to be women.
Roz Kaveney has been *very* influential in the SF/Fantasy world – she used to co-edit the influential “Interzone” magazine, she wrote numerous analytical articles about the genre, and she wrote several non-fiction books about the genre for I.B. Tauris. Certainly, as a teenager interested in the genre, I remember seeing Kaveney’s writings. I knew she was a transwoman after seeing her being interviewed on the BBC – I remember she had a very, very masculine voice, which stayed in my memory.
And in the same way John W. Campbell used his influence to promote Dianetics, “psi powers” and the “Dean Drive” among science fiction writers and readers, Kaveney used her influence to promote gender self-identification among that community.
Kaveney is a friend of Neil Gaiman, and I suspect her influence is responsible for Gaiman’s support for gender self-identification (Gaiman retweeting Laurie Penny’s conspiracy theories about GC women being fascists, etc.)
Anglo-American science fiction and fantasy is currently dominated by writers and reviewers who are aggressive supporters of gender self-identification : Gaiman, N. K. Jemisin (“TERFs are the polar opposite of feminist”), Charles Stross, Jeannette Ng, Cheryl Morgan, Elizabeth Sandifer, Farah Mendlesohn. Any SF/Fantasy writer who dares to utter even the mildest dissent from the GSI dogma is hounded without mercy (J. K. Rowling, Gareth Roberts).
The genres I loved have been taken over by GSI ideologues like Kaveney.
It’s why I only read the old SF now (Joanna Russ, Frank Herbert, Olaf Stapledon).
Mostly Cloudy,
Trans activists have inserted themselves into SF/F just as they’ve inserted themselves into feminism, making use of so-called “queer theory” as a way to do so. The “new wave” of SF/F that started back in the 1960s opened up science fiction to formerly taboo subjects touching on sex, and then the fiction and non-fiction of writers such as Ursula K. Le Guin, Joanna Russ, and Alice Sheldon (aka James Tiptree, Jr.) and other fan writers like Susan Wood brought feminism to the SF/F genre in the 1970s. It was an interesting as well as fractious time given how there was still plenty of good old fashioned rocket ship sexism in SF/F. Now we have some new fashioned sexism in the form of transgender politics to contemplate and deal with. Oh boy.
As for Kaveney’s influence, IMO he’s more relevant in the U.K. than the U.S. What’s influenced SF/F as a genre in the U.S. isn’t any particular person, but the impact of social media on the internet with its mob mentality bringing its slogans, flags, and the like to steer the conversation. (SF/F fanzines had their share of abusive types too of course, as well as longer-form criticisms that rose above that sort of thing.) The result has been a schism in the genre with the pro-trans side shunning anyone who isn’t with them and the other side that has mostly stayed silent in the face of things like twitter pile-ons and the banning of those who Say Bad Things from social events like SF conventions. The sad state of politics in the U.S. certainly has contributed to all this as well.
I too am not pleased with this state of affairs, although there are still plenty of SF/F writers out there who write works I enjoy reading who aren’t into transgender subject matter or at least aren’t jerks about it. I do feel sympathy for author Jo Walton, who a few years ago was about to have a novel published that dealt with actual sex change in a fairly near SF/F future set in the Solar System, but it was pulled from publication when some trans activists objected to how she portrayed the female sex as being a real and consequential thing, and that didn’t set at all well with those who insist that it’s gender that matters, not sex. Walton doesn’t even want to discuss this now, and really, who can blame her?
“What’s influenced SF/F as a genre in the U.S. isn’t any particular person, but the impact of social media on the internet with its mob mentality bringing its slogans, flags, and the like to steer the conversation…The result has been a schism in the genre with the pro-trans side shunning anyone who isn’t with them and the other side that has mostly stayed silent in the face of things like twitter pile-ons and the banning of those who Say Bad Things from social events like SF conventions. The sad state of politics in the U.S. certainly has contributed to all this as well.”
That’s an interesting (if dispiriting) analysis. I’ve been hearing horror stories about how conformist the US publishing industry has been for years, and it seems social media is indeed the culprit.
I liked some of Jo Walton’s short stories, so it’s a shame the book in question (“Poor Relations”) was withdrawn in the face of public bullying.
As for Jeannette Ng, she’s a nasty piece of work. Here is Ng attacking Joanna Cherry:
*”What a beautiful photo of inclusion. Fuck TERFs, indeed.”*
https://twitter.com/jeannette_ng/status/1142529221828497408
N. K. Jemisin’s TERF comment (#3): *sigh*. And I like her writing. I have several of her books. She was a guest of honor at WisCon a bunch of years ago.
Jo Walton is a regular at WisCon.
In 2019, I saw hints of trans ideology infesting WisCon. E.g. “I am a woman, dammit!” said (at a panel (topic of panel forgotten)) by a guy who transitioned in middle age. He’s been active in running the con for over a decade now, even before he transitioned. He’s currently involved in, or maybe even “in charge” of, registration.
WisCon bills itself as the world’s “premier feminist science fiction convention”. Once WisCon gets back from hiatus, we’ll see if it managed to stop the infestation. I have my doubts, considering how they handled the Jim Frenkel affair, and some other incidents I’ve heard about.
Karen the chemist,
Yeah, Jemisin’s reification of feminism as a set of sexist stereotypes is not radical. No, you aren’t a woman if you’re a man that puts on makeup, really. Relatedly, see Prince about that.
I do feel sorry for Jo Walton, who these days seems to avoid politics online. The “Karen” meme that’s infested social media and targets white middle aged women silences so many women.
I used to go to Wiscon myself back in the 1990s and 2000s, and it was a fun and thoughtful event that was centered around feminism. These days Wiscon is more centered around queer theory and social justice in general, and has also become very intolerant of differing political opinions. I doubt the hiatus will change that.
“These days Wiscon is more centered around queer theory and social justice in general, and has also become very intolerant of differing political opinions.”
Time was when SF writers with strongly different political opinions could still be friends and admirers of each others’ work (think Ursula Le Guin and Gene Wolfe, Jerry Pournelle and Norman Spinrad, or even H. G. Wells and G. K. Chesterton). I suspect the younger generation of fandom is more conformist and oversensitive now.
Side note: Would has anyone here read “The End of the World is Flat” by Simon Edge? Would it fall into the SF/F genre?
J.A. @ 7:
Yep, pretty much.
Or makes us louder and louder and LOUDER.
Or maybe that’s just me.
Stating a belief that he is a peer of Keats, Heine, and Catullus, and that he is the tall poppy others wish to cut down, while making a pretence at being modest enough to find that belief embarrassing, while aldo admitting that this entire thing is a knowing humblebrag. Such densely layered narcissism in a single tweet is a rare find.
Indeed, except for just one thing: where’s the humble part? It’s not even a humblebrag it’s just plain a brag, of grotesque dimensions.
And he doesn’t mean “at the expense of,” either, he means “at risk of.” Bragging makes a person’s linguistic abilities go all funny.
Neil Gaiman and Charlie Stross are a disappointment. Kaveney, meh.
Bloody poetry, man. It means whatever you think it means. The tweet is full of references to height – “getting above” theirself, being a “tall poppy”, being on a mountain, and most importantly, being able to look 3 men in the face – men are generally taller than women, so this indicates that Roz is also tall. Roz is expressing the existential terror experienced by every trans person of not passing as they’s chosen gender because of them’s stature. Deep!
@15 Maybe the next step in trans cosmetic mutilation er, disfiguration er, elective surgery. Take an inch or two out of their femurs and fibulas, or perhaps a vertebrae or three. The lengths to which they will go is a horror show. This put me off my breakfast this morning, truly heartbreaking >> https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xjDQyJgUpKw&feature=youtu.be Exulansic explains the tragedy.
@Catwhisperer – Keats was a shortie, dunno about Heine, and no-one knows about Catullus.
KBPlayer – I did have a quick google. 1.52m! Little pocket-poet.