Collective frustration
The women on the Princeton University swim team spoke of collective frustration edging into anger. They had watched Lia Thomas, a transgender woman who swam for the University of Pennsylvania, win meet after meet, beating Olympians and breaking records.
So we’re going to talk about this now? In the Times? At long last?
The team met with the executive director of the Ivy League athletic conference, Robin Harris. They enumerated the physical advantages males have. Harris said she wasn’t going to change the rules in the middle of the season.
The battle over whether to let female transgender athletes compete in women’s elite sports has reached an angry pitch, a collision of competing principles: The hard-fought-for right of women to compete in high school, college and pro sports versus a swelling movement to allow transgender athletes to compete in their chosen gender identities.
It’s all about the swelling, isn’t it.
Sebastian Coe, the Olympic champion runner and head of the International Association of Athletics Federations, which governs world track, speaks of biological difference as inescapable. “Gender,” he said recently, “cannot trump biology.”
The American Civil Liberties Union offers a counterpoint. “It’s not a women’s sport if it doesn’t include ALL women athletes,” the group tweeted. “Lia Thomas belongs on the Penn swimming and diving team.”
The ACLU doesn’t “offer a counterpoint,” it insults us with lies. ALL women athletes are women athletes; Lia Thomas is a man. He – obviously – does not belong on any women’s team.
Ms. Thomas herself has chosen silence. In March, after winning the 500-yard freestyle in the N.C.A.A. women’s championship in Atlanta, she skipped a news conference. She has of late spoken only to Sports Illustrated, saying, “I’m not a man. I’m a woman, so I belong on the women’s team.”
It’s a harmful mistake to refer to Thomas as Ms. Thomas and she. It’s doubly true in his case, because it’s not just that trans women are men, it’s also that it seems very unlikely that Thomas is even a trans woman. It seems much more likely that he’s just cheating, without any illusions about himself.
Even nomenclature is contentious.
Well of course it is – nomenclature is all there is. It’s the most purely linguistic form of “activism” ever seen.
Descriptive phrases such as “biological woman” and “biological man” might be seen as central to discussing differences in performance. Many trans rights activists say such expressions are transphobic and insist biology and gender identity are largely social constructs.
Gender identity is of course social, and stupid besides. Biology, no.
Again, it’s always assumed that “transgender” is a thing. What does that term actually mean? Orwell wrote about the importance of accurate language. TRA’s have done an excellent job of exploding the ability of words to provide the language to debate them.
Does Thomas have a male body or a female body? “Sex isn’t real.” What is a gender? “The sense of whether you’re male or female or neither.” What is male and female? “Genders. Which are both innate and unchanging as well as fluid.”
It’s all complete insanity but all these institutions take it as a serious, real thing.
The terms biological male and biological female do a lot of work, and I’m fine with using those at the moment to differentiate between women and non-women. In the end, we should just go back to men and women, because the definition is a biological one, so saying “biological female” is supererogatory.
Is this the first form of social justice activism comletely dependent on lies and obfuscation?
You’d think if they’re making rules that they would have definitions. They kinda go together. By failing to have actual definitions, they can say the rules are not being broken. How is it that so many sports are willing, in these circumstances only, to leave the question of elegibility to the say-so of the individual competitor? I’ll bet it wouldn’t be done for age, weight, height or other important physical characteristics. But for sex, (or at least women) suddenly nobody knows what everybody knows. Suddenly all these sporting bodies behave like the UK Labour Party. Which is odd, because they’re not elected. What’s the cost to them of not kowtowing to genderism? Is there any, apart from being called names? They are, however, about to find out the cost of screwing over women.
As I’ve mentioned before, I just don’t see a man doing this to win medals. He’d get zero respect from men, including himself if he hasn’t become convinced that he’s truly a woman.
I know Ophelia disagrees, but I guess it’s hard to prove either way. If she’s right, maybe a few of them will transition back after they age out of competitive sports, and maybe some will even confess. Too bad we don’t have reliable lie detectors so we can know now.
It really is a no-win situation for transwomen competing in women’s sports, as the only way for them to prove they don’t have an unfair advantage is to consistently lose, and so then what’s the point?
If they compete in the men’s division, they’ll also lose…just like most men. People with all sorts of medical conditions have no hope in competitive sports, so maybe people with gender dysphoria will just have to share their lot.
It doesn’t matter what the motivation is. They’re MEN and all the sincerity and T suppression in the world will never change that. Humans can’t change sex. End of story. Everything else is a smokescreen. However sincerely I believe I’m 12 years old, I am no longer 12, and will never be 12 years old agan. Unlike TiMs, I actually was 12 once, whereas they were never female.
Following the simple rule of “No men in women’s sports” means you never need lie detectors. It’s not complicated. Anyone who says it is is trying to legitimize cheating against women and girls.
Too fucking bad. They don’t belong there, so it should be a no-win situation for trans identified males in women’s sport. See how much easier it is to see that when you use the correct terms insted of the “preferred” ones?
They seem perfectly fine with winning by cheating. They’re perfectly fine using their unfair advatage to the fullest. Sports federations and governing bodies too. That’s the problem. The only reason they’re throwing the occasional match is because they no it looks bad and they’re starting to feel pressure from the outrage and pushback. Good.
And that’s their cross to bear, not women’s. You’d think they’d feel better about themselves losing within the rules than winning by cheating, even if sporting bodies give them “permission” to do so. The fact that this doesn’t seem to be the case, and that they’re so determined to force their way into women’s spaces are major red flags.
I think these people are irredeemably selfish and entitled, and probably hugely lacking in understanding or empathy for anyone outside themselves. It really looks like this is the case to me. There’s something sociopathic about it, either that or a level of permanent immaturity. They just couldn’t give a good god damn about anyone, and can’t be arsed. These are the people the TRA’s are defending, the non-trans ones anyway. They indulge them in these antisocial carryings on. The trans TRA’s like Chasio *are* trans, so they continue to advocate for this sociopathy, because they are lacking the same qualities as the rest of them and demand super special status because, you know, they deserve it more and are entitled to it.
Oh for crying out loud – men who pretend to be women “’d get zero respect from men” – are you KIDDING? What’s all this we keep seeing then? All these flattering lying headlines and stories and clips? All these prizes all this fame all this glory? You think it’s all women handing out the rewards? You think it’s all women solemnly talking about the “woman” shattering all the records?
They win a lot by doing this. Why do you use the conditional? Why “‘d” when it’s already happened and keeps happening? Why does your hunch about what men’d think about it supersede what men have already done about it, which is reward it and flatter it and cheer it on? How can it be a no-win situation WHEN THEY KEEP WINNING?
Or in other words what YNnB said, which I was too exasperated to read in full before retorting.
I’m of two minds on the question of whether or not Lia Thomas is faking. I agree with Skeltor that on the whole, I’m not convinced that male athletes who compete in female athletics know perfectly well that they’re men and are opportunistically seizing on a loophole. I’d buy this narrative if there were significant prize money attached to the competition in question, or some other kind of clear profit motive—but otherwise, I’m skeptical. As much policy makers and media outlets fawn over trans people, being trans comes with a high social cost, especially when you’re an obvious cheater who doesn’t remotely pass as your target sex. My hunch is that most trans “women” athletes, like most trans “women” in general, are some species of AGP.
@9 But if they ignore the social cost in the general population, and only focus on the narcissistic supply they get from TRA’s and their own in-groups, which is all too easy nowadays with the internet, it still looks like sociopathy. Of course Willy has “chosen silence”… he’s not concerned with social currency, but only with what feeds his own delusional and anti-social ego. The “woke” media’s handling of the trans issue doesn’t help, particularly when there are TRA’s and SJW’s on staff. It makes it easier for the propagandists to set the (misogynistic) tone.
Winning. Winning is the motive. They get to win, when they wouldn’t get to win competing against men. Sometimes winning means scholarships or prize money or both, other times it means just medals and glory and fame. I don’t see any reason to complicate it. Why would anybody cheat at sports? To win. People in sports like to win.
And it’s not winning if it’s cheating, no matter what it does for their pathetic, insecure egos. There is something psychologically wrong with people other than children who choose to ignore this fact. But I would also argue that even most children develop a sense of fairness pretty early on.
There is a very obvious lie detector built into William Thomas, et al. Does he get sexually aroused in the men’s change rooms? Or only in the women’s. Does he date men? Or women? When he gets on the piss, does he do it with a bunch of dudebros? Or girls?
I just don’t think “winning” is a convincing motive unless it’s followed by the direct object “money.” Thomas isn’t getting any scholarships out of this, and given that he’s about as popular as a skunk at a picnic, I doubt he’s getting any sponsorships, either. As far as I can tell, the only thing he earns for his NCAA wins is bragging rights, and those aren’t much good when very few people think you’ve done anything to brag about.
Now, Thomas supposedly has Olympic aspirations, so maybe he’s playing a long con with his eyes on Paris—but if he is, his risk/reward calculations are bad. The payout for a gold medal is $37,500. Even if he gets a fistful of medals, he’s not going to make enough money to offset the long-term career damage associated with gaining international infamy as a cheater, liar, and all-around clown. Thomas has been booed by spectators. His teammates have denounced him to the media. Several prominent figures in the swimming world, up to and including Michael Phelps, have gone on record as stating that he has an unfair advantage. At this point, it must be clear to him that even if policy-makers and left-leaning media outlets defend his “right” to compete as a woman, the general public isn’t having it.
Thomas is not only sacrificing his reputation; he’s also committing to an indefinite performance of trans womanhood. He has to dress as Lia, socialize as Lia, date as Lia, go to job interviews as Lia. If it’s all a farce, it’ll blow up in his face as soon as he drops it: if he goes back to being William, he’ll be back in the news cycle as That Cheating Cheater Who Cheated By Pretending To Be A Woman So He Could Cheat. This goes double if he goes to the Olympics.
I can’t help but feel that the most parsimonious explanation is that Thomas is doing it because he gets off on it. When he puts on a cute denim romper and introduces himself as “Lia,” he’s not cynically donning a disguise; he’s letting it all hang out. Winning titles and setting records is just the cherry on the sundae. The real dopamine hit comes from pretending to be a woman and forcing all the women around him to play along—to stand below him on the podium, to undress next to him in the locker room.
None of this exonerates Thomas, of course. However he behaves or whatever he believes himself to be, he is male-bodied and has no place in female sports. But my working hypothesis is *Dude wants to be a lady because wearing ladyface gives him erotic thrills; erotic thrills are extra thrilling when the women around him are compelled to validate his ladyood at their own expense.*
I hope you’re right. The general public certainly won’t buy it, but media support is going to take longer to overturn. Editorial standards and style guides have already taken a side and will need to be disentangled from genderist talking points. So long as calling out his cheating is considered worse than the cheating itself, and more concern is shown about misgendering or deadnaming rapists than their placement in women’s prisons, we’ve got a ways to go before the capture/surrender of media outlets is turned around.
Winning at sport is a hugely compelling motive for people who are into sports. Even if there’s no money involved, even if there are no scholarships at stake. I don’t think it’s exactly true that Thomas is committing to an indefinite performance of trans womanhood, because he’s not really performing it. He’s not doing much of anything different. He’s the most perfunctory Trans Lady I’ve ever seen.
It may be that he wasn’t expecting as much resistance as he’s getting, but even if that’s true it doesn’t seem to faze him much.
” extra thrilling when the women around him are compelled to validate his ladyood at their own expense.”
Which reminds me of what ‘Captain Cassidy’ on her blog ‘Roll to Disbelieve’ keeps saying about people who try to get to the top of authoritarian organizations like the Southern Baptists Church. They love power & he ultimate power thrill is making others do things those others don’t want to do.
I can certainly attest to that. While I played some sport at high school, it was not a focus for my life, but as an adult I took up a high risk aviation sport and discovered that I was very highly competitive – even though the most recognition that got you was a ‘nice flight’ from peers. Competitive enough that I’ve more than once put my life on the line, which, once back on the ground was clearly stupid, but in the air seemed like a carefully reasoned and absolutely proper thing to do.
Athletes in whatever sport aim to be the best they can, and preferably to win. I see that in my partner and her multi-sport friends. None of them is ever going to win a major contest, but they devote enormous resources in both time and money into maintaining and incrementally extending their performance. And this is middle aged women doing it for kicks, not people chasing life changing scholarships, promotional deals, and representative team slots.
I remember a couple of decades ago a large number of college and potential olympic athletes were anonymously polled whether they would use a performance enhancing drug that would guarantee an Olympic win, but lead to a dramatically shortened lifespan. An eye popping number (I recall it as being between 20-30%) said they would.
I don’t have any idea what goes on in William/Lia’s head, but I have no problem in believing that winning and fame at any cost is lurking in there somewhere.
I once knew someone who had been a very promising powerlifter, and not only did he openly admit using steroids himself, but as he described it, it was pretty much universally understood and accepted within the powerlifting community that everybody was doing it. And if you didn’t, that made you less rather than more respected. “Those suckers unwilling to do whatever it takes to win only deserve to lose” was the attitude.
[…] a comment by Rob on Collective […]
YNnB, I don’t think we’re disagreeing on anything substantial. I was just saying, gun to my head, I think Lia is being sincere in imagining that “she” is a woman. I’m not saying that would make it OK for “her” to compete in the women’s division.
The talk of lie detectors, etc., was just saying it would be nice to have a way to solve this debate over what the motive is decisively. I am not saying if their motive is pure they can compete in the women’s division. That shouldn’t be allowed. The last lines in my comment alluded to that.
We’re talking about 2 different things. Yes, woke men — and women — are patting themselves on the back for their open mindedness and encouraging trans women to compete “in the sport that matches their gender”. But they’re doing it because they’re accepting that TWAW.
You don’t have men who don’t accept that TWAW thinking it’s cool that these men are stealing prizes from women. That’s what I’m saying. Men aren’t sitting around cackling that fellow man Lia is grabbing all these medals from women and high fiving each other that this is giving us points in the battle of the sexes. Men who think Lia is a man think Lia is a disgrace and this should not be allowed.
I don’t think so. Certainly some men think it’s a disgrace, but I think it’s pretty clear that a lot more are either indifferent or going along with the ideology and its results so as not to get yelled at. It would be great if all men who aren’t 100% on board with the Doctrine were loudly objecting, but that’s not this world.
That was 22. About 21 – why do you think that? Why do you think he’s being sincere in thinking he’s a woman? What about his performance suggests sincerity?
I agree that winning can be its own motive. And I agree that people will cheat to win.
However, there are some limits to that. They almost always convince themselves that they’re not really cheating: Everybody else is also using performance-enhancing drugs…everybody else would use this trick if they knew about it…this is technically within the rules…etc.
In sports with weight cutting, it’s common to dehydrate, make weight, then rehydrate and compete at a higher weight. This is the type of cheating that everyone does and people basically accept. If you got someone who weighed 100 pounds less than you to do your weigh-in then you cleaned up the competition like nothing, this would be far beyond the pale, and everyone would think you were a disgrace.
For men, a man who knows he’s a man and who competes as a woman and wins would also be seen as a complete disgrace by other men who consider this person to be a man.
For misty-eyed woke people choking up at how wonderful it is that Lia gets to live and compete as “her” authentic self, a women, they think it’s great if “she” does well. Because they think “she” is a woman.
There is no “I believe Lia is a man and I think it’s great he’s winning medals in the women’s division” group.
#23:
Yes, apathy and fear are in the mix. A lot of people don’t really care enough about sports, or at least these sports, to get worked up about it. And a lot of people are terrified of the wokerati. And there’s probably a third category who hasn’t really looked into it, but from what they’ve seen most respectable people say it’s fine, so they figure it probably is.
#24:
Well, of course I don’t know, and I could be wrong.
It just seems to be a huge, huge commitment to make, and I don’t discount the backlash as much as others do above (the theories that Lia just listens to “her” own circle so doesn’t care that “she” is reviled, etc.).
So a man would have to say, I know I’m a man, but I can win more medals if I compete as a women. I’ll have to pretend to be a woman for the rest of my life. A lot of people will think I’m horrible. I’ll personally know I’m cheating like crazy and not really accomplishing anything impressive. I’ll have to take stuff that changes my hormones to do this, with possible lifelong fertility and other issues.
That seems almost impossible to me for someone who considers themselves a man to go along with.
On the flip side, we have a lot of people getting swept up in this trans stuff. Some of them are going to be reasonably good male athletes who now think they’re women, and some of them are going to want to continue competing. And, hey, if they do better — bonus!
That seems…not at all impossible. Pretty much expected, in fact.
There are already anecdotes about male prisoners declaring they they are women and getting put in female prisons, only to decide after release that they are men after all. I would not be surprised to see such anecdotes about athletes, although I know of none yet
The survey of athletes regarding a powerful but fatal performance enhancing drug is Goldman’s Dilemma Survey results from separate work by Gabe Mirkin and Bob Goldman over several years showed athletes surprisingly willing to use these drastic means to win. These results were controversial and not supported by the research of others.
I could easily see men thinking it was clever to con their way into a women’s prison to have an easier time and put themselves in a situation where they could potentially hook up with actual women (to take the least horrifying possibility). And, sadly, I could see a lot of men — especially the type who are in prison — agreeing with them.
I doubt even men in prison would think it was cool for men to compete in women’s sports and win medals.
I overstated it a bit above when I said no men would be cheering on men stealing titles from women. I’m sure there are some men that absolutely hate and despise women and would cheer for anything bad that happens to women. But we’re talking a very tiny, bitter, awful minority here.
But this is the whole point. Of course it’s grotesque, of course it’s not something reasonable people would do, of course it’s contemptible, and on and on. That’s why we object to it. But it’s not an argument for “That’s not what’s happening.” It’s EXACTLY what’s happening. What it looks as if William Thomas is doing? That’s what he’s doing. He’s openly cheating, and probably inwardly laughing at all the idiots cheering him on. That’s what’s wrong with the ideology: everything that seems to count against it in fact just spurs it on. There is no wizard behind the curtain, the wizard is standing in the middle of the stage screaming “I AM A FRAUD” while the audience cheers.
It’s almost funny. We volubly fume about this for literally years and then we get “This can’t possibly be true, it would be so grotesque and wrong.” It’s like skepticism with its sleeves inside out.
Skeletor @ #26:
What planet are you living on?
He’s getting over on the women:. Taking their spots, taking their prizes, setting records that women will take YEARS to best, if ever.
What “commitment”? These men are doing almost nothing to change their physical makeup. And gender is fluid, haven’t you heard? People can “say” they are whatever they want, whenever they want. They don’t have to “lifelong” anything. They can quit whenever they want. They’ll have the trophies, medals, and records anyhow. Of course, they can continue to cross-dress, wear long hair, and invade women’s spaces for the rest of their lives if they want to, too. That would serve the AGPs perfectly well, because they get to force women to capitulate to them; they can ogle the women, and they can force the women to see their male genitals. Dual humiliation of women plus implied threat. Win-win-win-win.