Take take take
No, trans women don’t experience misogyny, because they’re not women. They may experience fear and/or hatred of trans people, but they don’t experience hatred of women, because of not being women.
Men like Montgomerie want to steal everything that’s ours. On principle.
everything that’s ours
Transplaining how feminism should focus “specifically” on men? How stupid is this person?
Ok, I’m convinced, I’m Team Patriarchy now. To fight for women is to embrace the patriarchy.
@3 I think ‘patriarchy’ is one of those words some people throw around without knowing what it means. That Montgomerie dude looks like one of those people.
At the beginning of his page at https://katymontgomerie.medium.com/no-you-cant-always-tell-a5967cc55761 he has a picture that he says includes six real women and one pretend woman, but he doesn’t identify the exception. However, I notice that the one in the middle has a pronounced head tilt and the one at the right has a slight one.
Seems consistent: if not only women give birth, not only men are part of the patriarchy. Come to think of it, it’s transphobic to say otherwise.
Athel@5
I would agree that you can’t always tell. There are non-trans people who are involuntarily mistaken for the opposite sex, and the are drag queens and female impersonators who do a good job of passing. But “can’t always” doesn’t mean “can’t ever” or then “can’t usually”, and “can’t distinguish visually” doesn’t mean “no difference”. Failure to distinguish poisonous mushrooms didn’t mean they’re OK to throw in the soup.
Re the OP and whether trans-identified males are subjected to misogyny:
I don’t know the appropriate term for when someone is subjected to abuse based on mistaken identification. My usual example is Hindus who are abused because they are mistaken for Muslims. It is probably more in the Hindus’ interests to end abuse of Muslims than to clarify the distinction. So maybe Hindus are affected by the existence of anti-Muslim bigotry, and maybe they care about ending it.
Similarly, maybe trans-identified males are abused in the mistaken belief they are women, and maybe they have some interest in ending such abuse. The main counter argument I have for this is the almost complete lack of trans-identified male voices in any effort to promote the rights of women. Relishing being catcalled and objectified gives the opposite impression.
Montgomery has a challenge for GC which goes something like
1) Transwomen experience misogyny
2) Only women experience misogyny
3) Transwomen are not women.
Only 2 can be right.
I’ve tried to get him to address my argument which, instead of attacking #1, attacks #2 by pointing out that “misogyny” has two different meanings. There’s systemic hatred of women, which only women can experience. But then there’s a “hatred of women” which manifests as hatred of the feminine. That second interpretation would now include men feeling disgust for other men who “act like a woman,” as well as a desire to avoid doing so oneself. This translates into disliking anything judged effeminate.
First time I brought it up I mentioned “hating quiche” as an example of misogyny #2, and Montgomery ignored the actual argument and mocked the idea that quiche had anything to do with anything. I’ve gotten no other response, from the OP or anyone else, though I dutifully trot it out when Montgomery once again throws out the GC Challenge.
Sastra@8: very nicely said.
Goodness – so Katy has never heard of the “real men don’t” trope? Surely “eat quiche” is one of the first items on the list.
Oh look, type “real men don’t” (without quotation marks) into Google and “eat quiche” is the first result. It’s a book titie.
I think misogyny is the root of the bullying that effeminate men and boys receive. Males who express stereotypical feminine qualities are degraded precisely because anything associated with women is worthy of contempt. The names that men/boys call other men/boys are derogatory words for women/girls: pussy, girly-man, bitch, cunt, sissy, etc. That counts, in my book, as hatred of women.
It is possible for trans women to experience misogyny[1] by virtue of being mistaken for female, but this does not change the fact that that experience was caused by the animus being specifically against the female sex. By analogy, if I pass myself off successfully as a police officer, and some loutish dickhead latches on to me and pesters me with “Pig! Pig! oink oink” and so on, I have been the recipient of anti-police animus… but that in no way bolsters or legitimises my fraudulent claim to being a police officer.
@ Holms #13
They don’t even have to be mistaken for women. Even men who don’t pretend to be women can experience discrimination that grows out of hatred of women.