I probably disagree with LBC on most things, but not on this one. She’s good.
'People can't be reduced to one word like Karen.'
After SNP MP Mhairi Black compared gender critics to '50 year old Karens', @ShelaghFogarty says it's not 'bigoted' to have concerns about women's sex-based rights. pic.twitter.com/E8qoGBU4jJ
I have to admit to using the term “Kevin” or “Ken” quite often. And i actually disagree that the common use of the term, for either sex, is an inherently sexist. Instead, it’s all about social class and an associated sense of entitlement. Often with a strong dose of race thrown in. And this is by far how most people seem to use the terms.
For example, a friend of mine was volunteering at a local outdoor music festival. A Kevin came up to him t to complain that one band was playing for too long. He was white, dressed in the Napa upper middle class outdoor uniform. And yes…he was over 50, as am I for that matter. Would you like to guess the race and musical genre of the miscreant band?
Note that I don’t see that this person is using the term Karen in this more common, non explicitly political way. So a pox on her and her TRA nonsense
@Brian M that definition implies that therefore TRA objections to GC women’s views is that we are operating from a position of utilising our social class and/or race to enact unearned entitlement to women’s rights and spaces?
I agree with Arcadia. There’s no attempt to justify Black’s use of the term that does anything other than make it look even worse.
Women have a human right to physical safety and peace of mind; the fact that the most vocal women protecting women’s rights happen to be, in large part, reasonably financially secure just shows the immense power of the so-called marginalised TRA lobby. Working class women, now as a century ago, cannot afford the time and loss of income that would result from fighting male entitlement, even when they agree with those of us who are more secure by age aa well as class; older women are in a better position to fight for the rights of our younger sisters.
That’s some keen insight, tigger. The extra effort that misogyny now requires explains much, particularly the attempts to disguise it as something else.
Why bother with names? Entitled X (jerk/arsehole etc) is equally if not more effective and has the advantage of being relatively unambiguous. If you live by the meme you die by the meme.
I don’t think I’ve ever said “Karen” is inherently sexist…it’s just that it is sexist in the way it’s used, as far as I’ve seen. There could of course be other ways of using it that I haven’t seen, but the ones I’ve seen are just cleaned up “bitch/cunt.”
Working class women, now as a century ago, cannot afford the time and loss of income that would result from fighting male entitlement, even when they agree with those of us who are more secure by age as well as class; older women are in a better position to fight for the rights of our younger sisters.
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Well said.
Brian, if that’s the only way you hear Karen being used, then you are more fortunate than most of us. The Karen meme is one that would be better off gone, because it is meant to imply contempt for women, and is used predominantly against older women. Also, it may be entitled to call the manager, and it may not. Sometimes it is necessary to call the manager, and that is the case even when the individual is a person of color.
The incident you describe sounds extremely innocuous. I don’t see the entitled sense, other than the fact he was dressed well and was white. It’s possible there was something in his tone or face that suggested something else, but overall, people do have a right to their opinion.
And a lot of cases where supposed “Karens” are being exposed might be innocuous, too. Not every white woman who dares to speak to a clerk who is of color is necessarily acting entitled, and it appears to have been extended nearly that far. Sometimes when an employee is refusing to be of assistance, it might be necessary to do something to get the help you need.
I work retail, these days. But it’s an unusual sort of retail (home improvement chain), in that it has a much closer to fifty/fifty gender ratio than most shopping establishments, and the clientele are from a very diverse collection of ethnic and racial backgrounds (it’s a rare day when I don’t have generically ‘White’ customers, heavily-accented Eastern Europeans, Central Asians, East Asians, African-Americans and a variety of Hispanic guests, all within a few hours).
I can guarantee you that the behavior supposedly most linked to being a “Karen” (requesting the manager, usually over a trivial or even entirely fabricated outrage) is pretty much a human universal trait. I can confirm that some of the worst cases are usually white–because we live in a white-privileged society, and so such individuals are less likely to hear ‘no’, and more prone to believing that their complaints will be heard. But it absolutely is in no way a feminine trait; if anything, my most memorable cases are invariably male (usually because of the amount of cussing involved).
And Brian M, the fact that even you, supposedly an equal-opportunity user of “Ken” and “Kevin”, have two separate terms that you use for men you are critiquing indicates that what you’re really doing is looking for a term for ‘male Karen’.
Meanwhile, the term itself has quickly morphed (much like “Mary Sue”, which used to have a very precise meaning in the fanfic community, but now means, “any female character I don’t like for any reason”) into a general epithet to be used against any woman at all.
I’m way past 50…does that mean I’ve outgrown being a Karen?
Nope. You’re now a Super Karen.
Being Karen is my superpower!
I have to admit to using the term “Kevin” or “Ken” quite often. And i actually disagree that the common use of the term, for either sex, is an inherently sexist. Instead, it’s all about social class and an associated sense of entitlement. Often with a strong dose of race thrown in. And this is by far how most people seem to use the terms.
For example, a friend of mine was volunteering at a local outdoor music festival. A Kevin came up to him t to complain that one band was playing for too long. He was white, dressed in the Napa upper middle class outdoor uniform. And yes…he was over 50, as am I for that matter. Would you like to guess the race and musical genre of the miscreant band?
Note that I don’t see that this person is using the term Karen in this more common, non explicitly political way. So a pox on her and her TRA nonsense
@Brian M that definition implies that therefore TRA objections to GC women’s views is that we are operating from a position of utilising our social class and/or race to enact unearned entitlement to women’s rights and spaces?
I agree with Arcadia. There’s no attempt to justify Black’s use of the term that does anything other than make it look even worse.
Women have a human right to physical safety and peace of mind; the fact that the most vocal women protecting women’s rights happen to be, in large part, reasonably financially secure just shows the immense power of the so-called marginalised TRA lobby. Working class women, now as a century ago, cannot afford the time and loss of income that would result from fighting male entitlement, even when they agree with those of us who are more secure by age aa well as class; older women are in a better position to fight for the rights of our younger sisters.
That’s some keen insight, tigger. The extra effort that misogyny now requires explains much, particularly the attempts to disguise it as something else.
@Brian M
Why bother with names? Entitled X (jerk/arsehole etc) is equally if not more effective and has the advantage of being relatively unambiguous. If you live by the meme you die by the meme.
I don’t think I’ve ever said “Karen” is inherently sexist…it’s just that it is sexist in the way it’s used, as far as I’ve seen. There could of course be other ways of using it that I haven’t seen, but the ones I’ve seen are just cleaned up “bitch/cunt.”
Arcadia: not denying the questionable use by this raging MP.
As for why use the term? It’s a silly meme. Not a crime. There is a touch of policing of the language going on here that surprises me.
Nobody said it’s a crime. Why object to any insult-words? Why object to nigger? Faggot? Dyke? Bitch? Cunt?
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Well said.
Brian, if that’s the only way you hear Karen being used, then you are more fortunate than most of us. The Karen meme is one that would be better off gone, because it is meant to imply contempt for women, and is used predominantly against older women. Also, it may be entitled to call the manager, and it may not. Sometimes it is necessary to call the manager, and that is the case even when the individual is a person of color.
The incident you describe sounds extremely innocuous. I don’t see the entitled sense, other than the fact he was dressed well and was white. It’s possible there was something in his tone or face that suggested something else, but overall, people do have a right to their opinion.
And a lot of cases where supposed “Karens” are being exposed might be innocuous, too. Not every white woman who dares to speak to a clerk who is of color is necessarily acting entitled, and it appears to have been extended nearly that far. Sometimes when an employee is refusing to be of assistance, it might be necessary to do something to get the help you need.
I work retail, these days. But it’s an unusual sort of retail (home improvement chain), in that it has a much closer to fifty/fifty gender ratio than most shopping establishments, and the clientele are from a very diverse collection of ethnic and racial backgrounds (it’s a rare day when I don’t have generically ‘White’ customers, heavily-accented Eastern Europeans, Central Asians, East Asians, African-Americans and a variety of Hispanic guests, all within a few hours).
I can guarantee you that the behavior supposedly most linked to being a “Karen” (requesting the manager, usually over a trivial or even entirely fabricated outrage) is pretty much a human universal trait. I can confirm that some of the worst cases are usually white–because we live in a white-privileged society, and so such individuals are less likely to hear ‘no’, and more prone to believing that their complaints will be heard. But it absolutely is in no way a feminine trait; if anything, my most memorable cases are invariably male (usually because of the amount of cussing involved).
And Brian M, the fact that even you, supposedly an equal-opportunity user of “Ken” and “Kevin”, have two separate terms that you use for men you are critiquing indicates that what you’re really doing is looking for a term for ‘male Karen’.
Meanwhile, the term itself has quickly morphed (much like “Mary Sue”, which used to have a very precise meaning in the fanfic community, but now means, “any female character I don’t like for any reason”) into a general epithet to be used against any woman at all.