Guest post: There is another possibility

Originally a comment by The Whimster Gap on Gender-neutral childmaking.

Yes, but maybe also no. Sorry: I’m going to play devil’s advocate again.

Some of the drive towards gender-neutral newspeak might very well be based in a contempt for women qua women. Some might be based in a concern for the person, as separate from the body, or bare prudery about the body. This could be based in contempt for one sex or the other, but it doesn’t have to be.

There is another possibility, though, which is less sinister: it gives the law a way to deal more easily with lesbian couples. Obviously, only one of those will be the genetic parent (at least for the time being, though who knows what gene-splicing tech will be available soon). The genetic parent will likely be the gestatrix.

But the other woman will also be a parent in an entirely meaningful sense. She’d not be the father, though. Now, one might want to say that she’d be a kind of mother. But one might perfectly plausibly say that that’s not so – at least if one thinks that motherhood does have something to do with gestation. (Again, there may be disputes about that, but there is a use of the word “mother” in standard English that works that way; and one can’t easily try to proscribe that sense, or to prescribe a new one, without playing the same game as the genderloons.)

And there might be a further reason not just to call them both mothers which doesn’t depend on that kind of position. Suppose our lesbian couple splits up, and it’s acrimonious. There’s a dispute about child custody. Here, the law might want to take into account which partner gestated the child: that might be one of its considerations, even if only as a tie-breaker.

But why not talk about the gestational and the non-gestational mother in such cases? Well, because that doubles the work of the law. After all, straight couples sometimes split up, too; and in such cases, who is the mother and who is the father might matter when deciding what is best for the child, again, if only as a tie-breaker. So we could have one law that talks about gestating and non-gestating mothers, and another that talks about mothers and fathers. But these laws would be functionally identical. It’s therefore more efficient to cut the faff and talk about the non-gestating parent, because – bluntly – there’s really no significant difference between the non-gestating mother and the non-gestating father.

(Well, OK: there is the genetic contribution. But it’s not clear why that carries much weight, and as I’ve noted, it might not be a watertight distinction in the near future. Or the father might be adoptive, and so be in essentially the same position as the non-gestating mother. Or whatever. There’s going to be some conceptual bleed-through whichever way we cut it.)

So there is – arguably – a reason to distinguish in law between gestating and non-gestating parents that doesn’t rely on lunacy or misogyny. I’m not saying that that’s driving things here, but it’s still available.

Comments

14 responses to “Guest post: There is another possibility”

  1. iknklast Avatar

    While I can, on the surface, agree with all of this, it still has the effect of being a problem for biological women, including the gestating lesbian mother. It removes us from the equation, and turns us into breeding machines. I strongly oppose any language that reduces women to ‘breeders’. Mother does not do that, because it implies so much more.

    And since adoptive mothers are called ‘mother’, even though they did not gestate the child, I don’t see why there is a problem with using that for lesbian couples. The same with gay men who adopt a child; father is a perfectly acceptable term for addressing them.

    In reality, if this were about lesbians (and I suspect it is not, but that justification can come in handy when people protest), it would once again be a negative impact on half of humanity for the sake of a small minority who can be properly covered by the existing word.

  2. Ophelia Benson Avatar

    Good point; I think the adoptive parent practice is key.

    In fact now I mention it, I wonder if that is part of the background to trans ideology. I don’t think I’ve noticed that before. With adoption, I think it’s generally considered not just ok but necessary and urgent to call the adoptive parents Mommy and Daddy – that it’s part of the bonding process. Onlookers shouting “You’re not Mommy!” would be unthinkable. Maybe the trans ideologues are thinking of Woman & Man in the same way. They’re wrong, but maybe that is what bridges the gap between reasonable and beneficial versus crazed and harmful.

  3. Omar Avatar

    (Well, OK: there is the genetic contribution. But it’s not clear why that carries much weight, and as I’ve noted, it might not be a watertight distinction in the near future. Or the father might be adoptive, and so be in essentially the same position as the non-gestating mother. Or whatever. There’s going to be some conceptual bleed-through whichever way we cut it.)

    Except that preservation and multiplication of genes in intact genomes is a major part of what life is all about. Some would say it is the only part. All innate and learned behaviour, and for us as a species of the taxonomic Kingdom Animalia in the setting of the whole Biosphere, that is all behaviour, both cooperative and antagonistic with regard to both other members of our species and members of others, all is governed by those genes, and in the interest of their survival and perpetuation, in an ever-changing and ever-evolving context; even through a sequence of big bangs and big crunches that has gone on since the beginning of time, and will go on forever, or till the end o it.

    Here I stand.

  4. Lady Mondegreen Avatar
    Lady Mondegreen

    What Omar said. Imagining that “genetic contribution” doesn’t “carry much weight” is like imagining that men are women if they say so: it’s a denial of our reality as evolved animals.

    By the way, babies are born bonded to their mothers. There’s a theory that holds that disrupting this bond causes trauma.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Primal_Wound

    Apparently even those children adopted soon after birth have poorer psychological outcomes overall than children who remain with their birth parents.

    https://ifstudies.org/blog/the-paradox-of-adoption/

  5. marcel proust Avatar
    marcel proust

    “Maybe the trans ideologues are thinking of Woman & Man in the same way. They’re wrong, but maybe that is what bridges the gap between reasonable and beneficial versus crazed and harmful.”

    I don’t understand the point being made here. Please elaborate very explicitly for I am a bear of very little brain.

  6. Ophelia Benson Avatar

    With adoption, I think it’s generally considered not just ok but necessary and urgent to call the adoptive parents Mommy and Daddy – that it’s part of the bonding process. Onlookers shouting “You’re not Mommy!” would be unthinkable. Maybe the trans ideologues are thinking of Woman & Man in the same way.

    Maybe the trans ideologues are thinking of Woman & Man the way people mostly think about adoption: that the adoptive parents are Mommy and Daddy and that is part of the bonding process, and so it would be grotesque and horrible for onlookers to shout that the adoptive parents are not really Mommy and Daddy. It’s a fiction in a sense, but not a lie; it’s a fiction the adopted child needs.

    Is that any clearer?

  7. Deep Thinking Avatar
    Deep Thinking

    What Omar said. Imagining that “genetic contribution” doesn’t “carry much weight” is like imagining that men are women if they say so: it’s a denial of our reality as evolved animals.

    By the way, babies are born bonded to their mothers. There’s a theory that holds that disrupting this bond causes trauma.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Primal_Wound

    Much weight relative to the gestational contribution; under that theory, the mother (babies are born bonded to) is not necessarily the woman whose genetic contribution the child bears, but rather the woman who bears the child.

  8. twiliter Avatar

    I’ve been ‘blessed’ with a handful of stepchildren, a few of which have said to me “You’re not my dad!” Now that’s hurtful but if they had said “You’re not my biological father” then there would have room for debate, and I could have made a decent case for circumstantial parents/caregivers. As it was I was compelled to fall on my sword. They were very young and time heals all of course, and there were happy endings, but I can’t say I wasn’t wounded.

  9. Ophelia Benson Avatar

    It’s sort of inevitable, right? I had to spend some time with non-parental relatives as a child, and I felt the difference acutely. I think the kids are the ones who really feel the pinch of that distinction.

  10. marcel proust Avatar
    marcel proust

    (How do you get the bar that indicates quoting another’s statement?)

    “It’s a fiction in a sense, but not a lie; it’s a fiction the adopted child needs. Is that any clearer?”

    If I understand correctly this suggests a high level of homophobia on the part of trans ideologues. Is that what you mean?

  11. Ophelia Benson Avatar

    Angle bracket, statement, close angle bracket.

  12. Ophelia Benson Avatar

    No, that’s not what I mean. I can’t see how you got from the quoted bit to your interpretation.

  13. marcel proust Avatar
    marcel proust

    I had hoped that if I am still misunderstanding you would have elaborated further.

    My thought was that Mommy & Daddy are to X as Man & Woman are to Y, and where the first values I thought of for X and Y were parental love or parents (for X) and erotic love or partners for Y. So let me try again (and please continue to bear with me).

    The NYTimes had a piece over the weekend called The Priests Revered in the Land of Five Genders about a society on the island of Sulawesi (Indonesia) that recognizes 5 genders (and here I am going to try the html trick you explained to me above):

    * Cisgender men and women (cisgender people have gender identities that match their sex assigned at birth)

    *Men who exhibit feminine traits

    * Women who exhibit masculine traits

    A different way that now occurs to me of understanding what you did was to raise the possibility that trans-ideologues, conflating sex (biological reality in the more than vast majority of cases) with gender (a social construct), in good faith believe that there are precisely 2 genders* so insist that they be labeled Man & Woman.

    I hope I got it right this time.

    *well that seems to be the case still in our society.

  14. Ophelia Benson Avatar

    I didn’t elaborate further because I didn’t know what it was you didn’t understand. I’m only human! I can’t guess at which part is murky, I need to be told.

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