But…
But what even is a “queer Muslim”? You can’t really be both, just as you can’t really be a Muslim feminist. The religion in question explicitly despises you, and absolutely does not count you as one of its own. It will put you to death if it can get its hands on you.
There are no “queer Muslims” just as there are no menstruating men.
Some points:
1) Yes, Owen Jones is an idiot.
2) Yes, “queer” is a vague, faddish term that shouldn’t have replaced “gay” or “homosexual” in the vernacular.
But….
Shahrar Ali is also a Muslim.
Shahrar is a Muslim himself…He told Connie Shaw: “As somebody who does self-identify as a Muslim, I keep my religion out of politics — it’s as simple as that. And I think religion has to be kept out — within reason — of politics, which should be a secular space. When I campaign as a Green candidate, I campaign first and foremost as a Green.”
I don’t think Ali wants to bother feminists or “queer” people (whoever they are).
I’m not sure what your comment is replying to. I didn’t say Ali wants to bother “queer” people or feminists.
Yes, “queer” is a vague, faddish term that shouldn’t have replaced “gay” or “homosexual” in the vernacular.
When did it replace “gay”? I was very familiar with the term “queer” in the 1950s and I knew what it meant. I met “gay” much later (1965?) and had to guess from the context what it meant. At that time I think it was only used by homosexuals themselves.
Mostly Cloudy – to clarify further – I included Ali’s remark because I agree with it. I’m not disputing him.
Interesting. A few years ago, someone tweeted this message to Richard Dawkins:
To name JUST A FEW off the top of my head.
There are countless Muslim & ex-Muslim feminists.
You don’t know that?!
https://x.com/OpheliaBenson/status/693618112139112450#m
Now:
you can’t really be a Muslim feminist.
So why did you change your mind about whether a Muslim woman can also be a feminist?
A fair question.
I think it’s not so much changing my mind as viewing it from a different angle. Yes there are lots of Muslims who are liberal, feminist, not homophobic, etc, and that’s a very good thing. But. What I really think is that they should just leave. This also applies to liberal adherents of other religions.
But then again if they leave, the religion will only be worse.
I don’t know of any solution to this problem.
Athel – pretty recently I think? I know it’s been contentious. That whole reclaiming what has been a venomous epithet thing is always contentious. It’s like the N word – see Richard Pryor on the subject. See also “bitch”; see also the pervasive use of “cunt” in the UK, which still annoys me even though I’ve seen/heard it several billions times by now.
Thanks for the reply.
I think we have different perspectives on this. There are horrible, reactionary Muslims, but there are also kind, thoughtful, Muslims. I’ve met and befriended a few of the latter. I don’t think Muslims living in the West or elsewhere are permanently lost to feminism and progressivism.
The rise of extremist Muslim movements have complex origins, that opponents of them would do well to study. Any serious historian of Iran will tell you that you can’t explain the rise of the Khomeini regime without reference to the Anglo-American coup against Mohammad Mosaddegh.
I’m strongly committed to the separation of Church and State, but I don’t “hate” Islam, anymore than I “hate” Christianity, Hinduism or any other of the major world religions.
Besides, you’d have to admit that some of the biggest “protect our women and girls from the Muslims” voices have either treated women very badly, or enabled men who have done so.
Exhibit A: Donald Trump.
Athel – fans of the Tottenham Hotspur soccer team, which has a strong Jewish association, often use a No-No word rhyming with “kid” to refer to themselves. It was the same idea of reclaiming an ethnic slur thrown at the team’s supporters:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tottenham_Hotspur_F.C._supporters
Some are annoyed when I refer to myself as a ‘libtard,’ but there again. why not own it? If it bothered me, then they win. Sticks and stones.
Are we not all out, loud, and proud TERFs here?
Mostly Cloudy
I’m not saying there are no kind, thoughtful Muslims! That would be a ludicrous thing to say, as well as a cruel one. The subject was Islam, not Muslims. They’re not one and the same. There’s a lot of bad shit in Islam. We don’t have to “respect” it or admire it or cuddle it just because it’s a religion.
Part of the issue, I think, is that decent human beings who happen to be Muslims often make the same category error that decent human beings who happen to be Christian make–namely, they attribute their decency to their faith, rather than realizing it exists independently.
Thus, if you tell one of these decent people that their faith is not only wrong, but full of harmful and toxic precepts, they suffer from a massive cognitive dissonance that is more than many can cope with.
With such people, it is often easier to accept the existence of their faith (even while privately lamenting it), and to point out the contradictions between their decency (which, again, they attribute to their faith), and the words (and actions!) of the more reprehensible members of their communininny. Creating a schism between the decent and the reprehensible serves the greater good, even if it means that more of the decent retain their illogical core beliefs about the existence of imaginary sky-daddies.
Some are annoyed when I refer to myself as a ‘libtard,’ but there again. why not own it? If it bothered me, then they win.
How exactly is inducing you to call yourself an idiot not a win for them?
Are we not all out, loud, and proud TERFs here?
Are we not all against excluding trans-identifying females from womanhood here?
Because people who use that portmanteau as an insult think liberal ideals are retarded and I don’t. It’s a joke word, I use it as such.
Freemage:
With such people, it is often easier to accept the existence of their faith (even while privately lamenting it), and to point out the contradictions between their decency (which, again, they attribute to their faith), and the words (and actions!) of the more reprehensible members of their communininny. Creating a schism between the decent and the reprehensible serves the greater good, even if it means that more of the decent retain their illogical core beliefs about the existence of imaginary sky-daddies.
You are right. If progressive Americans, for example, want to get the Trumpist/MAGA crowd out of the White House, the U.S. Congress, and the Supreme Court, they’re going to need a “Big Tent party.” And that’s going to have to include Muslim progressive activists like Zohran Mamdani and Ilhan Omar.
Which doesn’t mean we can’t criticize Islam.
Of course you can criticize Islam. And I will defend your right to do so.
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