Check out the comments on Richard Francks’s Descartes and God. They’re all terrific but especially the one by gfelis, which is to say, our friend G.
Even if Descartes was right about our ability to doubt the existence of the material world when we really, really try very hard to doubt it, his insight merely reveals that absolute proof is a very stringent standard for knowledge (an ultimately unrealistic standard, sensible epistemologists now agree). It does not mean there is “no good reason to believe” in the existence of the material world, it merely means that even the very existence of the material world – as obvious as it is to us – cannot be proven absolutely beyond any shadow of a doubt…Whereas there are many good reasons to believe in the existence of the material world, albeit not conclusive proof beyond any shadow of a doubt, there are no good reasons to believe in the existence of God…It isn’t simply a matter of the existence of God lacking some absolute and irrefutable proof: It lacks any convincing arguments or solid evidence whatsoever. Believing in the existence of God really is very much like believing in that invisible, intangible, never observed no matter how often it’s looked for porcupine under Professor Franck’s bed.
What about the waterfall? This gfelis fella must be forgetting the waterfall. The waterfall is one knock-down argument; everyone knows that.
Comments
9 responses to “Don’t forget the waterfall”
*blushes*
Thanks, OB.
False modesty aside – and believe me, any modesty I express is false – I think the 6th comment from Nick1123 has the best response, a fine reductio ad absurdum.
Indeed! Go Nick1123, whosoever you may be!
Thanks G! I am a long-time reader of B&W (and very occasional commenter), and always enjoy your comments on the topics.
G – in case you are interested, I have some of my occasional ramblings on my blog:
http://freethinkingblog.blogspot.com/
Hi Nick!
Funny, I kind of thought about G’s ‘whosoever you may be’ – that it was faintly sad that you might be a ship passing in the night. So it’s very pleasing to know you’re no stranger.
I liked your comment a lot too.
Thanks OB. I’m still an avid reader of B&W, and enjoy it very much!
A good comment G.
However, the question that leaps to mind is “if there is no good reason to believe, why do so many believe?”
Useful empirical arguments like “If I don’t believe, Mahmoud bozorgeh will cut my throat, petit Dominic will burn me at the stake, and David will refuse to do business with me” may at times have been helpful.
But they don’t cover the vast number of believers not presently facing death or ostracism. The rationalist dismissal of the pathetic arguments offered so far appears comprehensive; but it looks like the real arguments have not been addressed, since the rebuttals have not changed believers’ minds.
Of course if this is a rational debate it is not the atheist, but the theist side’s responsibility to produce their ‘real’ arguments.
But since there appears to be no grounds on which believers would commit to respond to evidence by changing their belief, it is not a rational debate.
“Of course if this is a rational debate it is not the atheist, but the theist side’s responsibility to produce their ‘real’ arguments. “
Pfff. Everyone believes in God (1). Atheists need to prove he doesn’t exist (2), they are the ones making the extraordinary claim (3).
1 – Received belief is not proof of existence.
2 – Proving a negative is not the same as believing something for no good reason.
3 – I can do theology, me.
“Why do so many believe? (in the face of the lack of evidence)”
Well, why do so many people (in well-informed Western nations) start smoking, and continue to smoke, in SPITE of all the solid evidence regarding the health risks?
It makes them, to simplify horribly, “feel good” in some way…just like that other “addiction”, religion:
C’mon, come to “Marlboro Seventh Day Baptist Church”* country – can’t you just taste the psychological flavour? All that lovely moral certainty, all those promises that everything will be fine ‘n’ dandy after you snuff it, what with that wonderful supreme deity watching out just for you, ‘cos no matter who you are, you’re just so special…(and aren’t there sooo many meanings of “special”?) :-)
Not that I’m trying to argue that it’s a “good thing” – I’ve never been in favour of ‘lying to children’, and I’m not about to start now (I even told them the truth about Santa)…
But it’s well worth visiting an evangelical church service (of any creed/denomination). It rapidly becomes apparent just how powerful a “fix” the celebrants are getting – and let’s not forget that old charismatic swindle, the “toronto blessing”, huh?
(So very different to the dour “THOU SHALT NOT!!!” sermons from the ‘Meenister’ when I was a lad)
It must take a genuine effort to sacrifice all that in favour of boring old Reason…
:-))
* This IS a real place:
http://www.marlborosdb.org
Bridgeton, NJ, USA.