Here’s another submitter, courtesy of pittigemaki.
I like the whole idea and practice of submission. I have heard far too many Christian women snicker, sneer, grumble, roll their eyes, or downright reject the “s word.” But why? Why are women hung up on “submission” when God asks us to do it?
Because women are human beings like other human beings, and there is no good reason to order* human beings of one type to submit to human beings of another type. It’s degrading; it’s an assumption of inferiority; it’s anti-egalitarian. That’s why. The fact that god is supposed to have commanded it doesn’t make it better; it makes god worse.
*The claim is not that god “asks” women to submit; the claim is that god tells them to.
Comments
13 responses to “Why are women hung up on “submission”?”
It seems that for many people, Euthyphro’s dilemma isn’t a dilemma. Might makes right — end of story.
Snap! I just made the same point on the latest post, on a woman who all but spells that out. Unstinkingbelievable.
Ah, yes, we’ve encountered Nicole before, have we not? Was that pittigemaki too, or shouldn’t we ask?
I’m not familiar with the particular passage of Ephesians, but it’s good to know that lashings things we do is cool with God.
This submitting stuff makes me feel like I just stepped in the way-back machine.
As was pointed out earlier, this is the whole deal for these Christians. As long as God never says anything else contradictory in the future from this arbitrary point on, everything he’s said thus far is moral, because he said so, end of story. Never mind that his word was edited by a bunch of men a millennium and a half ago based on the stories and letters their congregations supposedly liked best at the time, and their take on it happened to get popularized through kings and alliances and wars, during a time where ecclesiastical authorities took it less seriously than anyone else.
Never mind that, even within the most popular canon, there are immensely immoral acts commanded or committed by YHWH himself; these are callously and arrogantly waved away. God was just doing it to fulfill the greater good of murdering his own son to later save us. Or, that was moral back then, but it no longer applies, because of the same act of filicide.
Never mind, even, that a more modern Christian thinker, scholar and apologist like C.S. Lewis still had the decency in him to admit that, despite the Bible’s teachings, the equal treatment of women has proven necessary, because men have so constantly and thoroughly abused their god-given authority.
No, they say. Forget all of that. What’s important is that a former mass murderer a bunch of early Christians happened to like wrote in a letter that wives be submissive. Because mass murderers are God’s favorite spokesmen (but only men). Gloria in excelsis deo!
Yes we have encountered her before. In fact, if you check the comments on that page, you’ll see D. Finney giving her a piece of his mind (he will be missed). She actually commented on Butterflies and Wheels after that, defending herself. I don’t remember what that post was off the top of my head (and haven’t time to look right now).
1) she wants something, her husband doesn’t, and he wins,
2) she says he can’t tell her what to do, and he points out that he can, always, in perpetuity,
Then
3) she says that she hasn’t lost anything by going along with this system of submission.
Looks like the first thing she lost was the ability to use logic…
No no Mary Ellen, she didn’t lose it, she sacrificed it, as a gift to the Lord.
We’ve encountered Nicole before, have we? I wonder if I can find that…
Oh yes, so we have, and it was just this past June. My memory is crap.
Obey moar.
Damn…I don’t think I saw Nicole’s comment. I’m sure I would have replied if I had.
What she says in the comment is a good deal less strict than what the real youmustsubmitters say. She’s a bit of a heretic…
Actually, what happens if the husband looses his faith? Does she still submit to him? Or if he keeps his faith but orders her to have an abortion, or anything she considers morally wrong? Because if not then it’s not real submission. (Abraham’s submission included his being willing to sacrifice his son. So if her husband represents God, she has to trust and submit even if this means sacrificing her kids).
Some stipulate “unless he tells you to sin.” Others don’t, because the sin is his, not hers.
I’m not sure about what to do if he goes atheist though – I’m not sure I’ve seen that addressed.