Hang on, hang on, I’m sorry, Grace, Grace

Lavery interview part 2 (I needed a break from transcribing).

At 35 minutes: Emma Barnett: “You have written ‘I’m quite sure that women’s rights are not, have never been, and must never be sex-based.’ [Lavery says “Yeah.”] But to those women who believe that they must have sex-based rights for a variety of reasons ranging from sport to women-only spaces for different purposes – you’ll be very familiar, our listeners will be as well – how can you say that with such surety?”

Lavery: “Well again I say it on the basis of twenty years of [? access? experts?], research, and teaching in the field, I have been doing this work for a long time.”

He’s an expert, you see. She’s not, we’re not, but he is. Credentials, my dear; you wouldn’t understand.

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“The notion of sex-based rights is a very recent phenomenon,” he continues, “it hasn’t existed for more than a few years and it’s a really bad deal [or idea] for women.”

No. Rather, what’s happened in those “few years” is that men like him have tried to appropriate both womanhood and feminism, so we’ve been forced to keep pointing out that men like him are not women and do not get to take our stuff.

Lavery: “Here’s the thing, Emma, I actually had a debate with one of my GC friends -“

Barnett interjects to say GC=gender critical feminists.

” – I would say gender critical activists because I think many of them are explicitly not feminists, but I’m happy with whatever, but -“

Barnett [interrupting with some energy]: “Hang on, hang on, I’m sorry, Grace, Grace, just pause that thought – if you don’t want a world where the borders of what it is to be a woman are policed, why are you trying to police the borders of what it is to be a feminist, and what some women are meant to care about?”


I’ll leave it there.

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