Would autogynephilic men still want medical procedures to make them look like women if they didn't expect culture, society & the law to force everyone else to cooperate with their delusions, enabling them to cross women's boundaries? @HJoyceGender thinks not. pic.twitter.com/oO1LAOy05p
Wow, that’s more than a jib. That’s a Ship of the Line in full sail! And a first-rater like HMS Victory with all 102 guns blazing.
No, but seriously, this is saying it like it is, and we have to make sure this is understood. You cannot change your sex, and whatever you do, and especially if you go all in on the surgery in order to do it, you remain what you were born, male or female; but if you do go all in on the surgery you will likely feel even more out of place. Treat it as a psychological or psychiatric problem, like body integrity dysphoria, but not as a physical problem. And sure, if people realised this, would it not make it more comfortable to be what you are, instead of messing with your body?
My guess is that it’s not just AGP men who would refuse to go through with sex trait modifications under these circumstances. Being transgender is an identity which comes with an entire package of new concerns and goals — and this includes a grand, sweeping narrative of the noble struggle for the right to be recognized and acknowledged for Who You Really Are. This is a very seductive framework for those who feel especially uncertain, inadequate, or insignificant, for they are now recast as characters in a civil rights drama centered around how special their inner self has become. And in this story, they’re on the winning side.
Being told that no, they’ve lost this role but undergoing hormone treatment and/or surgery may make them feel better about themselves even if nobody else sees them the way they want to be seen is going to look underwhelming in comparison. I suspect at least part of the appeal for transitioning is the promise of dedicated compatriots and a victorious battle.
That’s a keen bit of reasoning on Helen’s part. I’m in agreement, particularly when it comes to minor children. If this kind of legislation can be enacted, then there are plenty of other ‘lifestyle’ avenues for these people to pursue without infringing on women’s rights. Similar to alcohol laws, you can’t, by law, drink if you’re a minor, you can’t endanger other people’s lives by driving drunk, you can’t perform serious tasks while intoxicated, you can’t be drunk in public (in most cases), or be disorderly or disturb the peace (a side effect of intoxication). Sure, you are legally allowed to drink, in fact it’s encouraged and glamorized in much of society — it’s perfectly socially acceptable, but there are laws governing how and when, in order to protect others and their rights. I think this idea is spot on.
for they are now recast as characters in a civil rights drama centered around how special their inner self has become.
Exactly so, and that’s why it’s so obnoxious and so totalitarian and so narcissistic. It gives me the crawls seeing all these adults urging other adults to carry on like self-obsessed teenagers. People are supposed to grow out of that “I’m so special” way of thinking, not entrench themselves in it, let alone create a deranged bastardized pseudo-political movement out of it.
The flip side of Joyce’s point is that there are plenty of women who are o.k. with accepting trans-identifying males into women’s spaces, sports, etc. Even feminism for many women isn’t just about women, it’s intersectional and therefore must include transgendered males within the big tent of feminism, and also must uphold their identity as women. There are states, like Minnesota for example, that have passed state laws that uphold transgender rights and ban so-called “conversion therapy” when it comes to affirming gender identity. There are also states like Iowa that have passed laws requiring public schools to not affirm the gender identities of their students, and this clash is playing out politically across the U.S. (and in other countries) now.
Joyce, along with other gender-critical activists are dismissed as transphobes and right-wing fascists by the left, and at least in the Democratic Party it isn’t at all popular to come out and criticize things like transitioning children or bring up detransitioners to question whether affirmation is a sound medical or psychological practice. Unfortunately, those who question gender ideology on the left are caught between the extremes of both left and right, and they can’t be public about their beliefs without being ostracized by the left in general. That won’t change until something truly horrible happens that breaks the spell of gender. Why? Because even good arguments will not get through to those who simply won’t acknowledge them.
All one can do is be honest and keep acting in good faith even when others aren’t, and help pick up the pieces when this gender ideology comes crashing down under the weight of it’s own arrogance. Gender isn’t a fact of existence like sex is, it’s a set of stereotypes being used to assert that a claimed gender identity must be respected, even when it’s obviously not real. One is not bound to go along with a lie, no matter how sincere the belief in it is. How to do that firmly, yet with respect for those who believe otherwise is the rub.
Even feminism for many women isn’t just about women, it’s intersectional and therefore must include transgendered males within the big tent of feminism…
Well those many women are just wrong then. Of course feminism is about women and not about anything else. People who want a big tent about-everyone political movement can sign up to socialism or conservatism or liberalism or anarchism or the like. Feminism is taken.
She seems to be on the right track here, even if the majority of men who claim to be women never change the configuration of their genitals and many never take any drug regimen. We need to make sure the public knows that very few of these men are anything other than fully physically intact males.
Damn, I like the cut of her jib.
Wow, that’s more than a jib. That’s a Ship of the Line in full sail! And a first-rater like HMS Victory with all 102 guns blazing.
No, but seriously, this is saying it like it is, and we have to make sure this is understood. You cannot change your sex, and whatever you do, and especially if you go all in on the surgery in order to do it, you remain what you were born, male or female; but if you do go all in on the surgery you will likely feel even more out of place. Treat it as a psychological or psychiatric problem, like body integrity dysphoria, but not as a physical problem. And sure, if people realised this, would it not make it more comfortable to be what you are, instead of messing with your body?
My guess is that it’s not just AGP men who would refuse to go through with sex trait modifications under these circumstances. Being transgender is an identity which comes with an entire package of new concerns and goals — and this includes a grand, sweeping narrative of the noble struggle for the right to be recognized and acknowledged for Who You Really Are. This is a very seductive framework for those who feel especially uncertain, inadequate, or insignificant, for they are now recast as characters in a civil rights drama centered around how special their inner self has become. And in this story, they’re on the winning side.
Being told that no, they’ve lost this role but undergoing hormone treatment and/or surgery may make them feel better about themselves even if nobody else sees them the way they want to be seen is going to look underwhelming in comparison. I suspect at least part of the appeal for transitioning is the promise of dedicated compatriots and a victorious battle.
That’s a keen bit of reasoning on Helen’s part. I’m in agreement, particularly when it comes to minor children. If this kind of legislation can be enacted, then there are plenty of other ‘lifestyle’ avenues for these people to pursue without infringing on women’s rights. Similar to alcohol laws, you can’t, by law, drink if you’re a minor, you can’t endanger other people’s lives by driving drunk, you can’t perform serious tasks while intoxicated, you can’t be drunk in public (in most cases), or be disorderly or disturb the peace (a side effect of intoxication). Sure, you are legally allowed to drink, in fact it’s encouraged and glamorized in much of society — it’s perfectly socially acceptable, but there are laws governing how and when, in order to protect others and their rights. I think this idea is spot on.
Exactly so, and that’s why it’s so obnoxious and so totalitarian and so narcissistic. It gives me the crawls seeing all these adults urging other adults to carry on like self-obsessed teenagers. People are supposed to grow out of that “I’m so special” way of thinking, not entrench themselves in it, let alone create a deranged bastardized pseudo-political movement out of it.
Some thoughts.
The flip side of Joyce’s point is that there are plenty of women who are o.k. with accepting trans-identifying males into women’s spaces, sports, etc. Even feminism for many women isn’t just about women, it’s intersectional and therefore must include transgendered males within the big tent of feminism, and also must uphold their identity as women. There are states, like Minnesota for example, that have passed state laws that uphold transgender rights and ban so-called “conversion therapy” when it comes to affirming gender identity. There are also states like Iowa that have passed laws requiring public schools to not affirm the gender identities of their students, and this clash is playing out politically across the U.S. (and in other countries) now.
Joyce, along with other gender-critical activists are dismissed as transphobes and right-wing fascists by the left, and at least in the Democratic Party it isn’t at all popular to come out and criticize things like transitioning children or bring up detransitioners to question whether affirmation is a sound medical or psychological practice. Unfortunately, those who question gender ideology on the left are caught between the extremes of both left and right, and they can’t be public about their beliefs without being ostracized by the left in general. That won’t change until something truly horrible happens that breaks the spell of gender. Why? Because even good arguments will not get through to those who simply won’t acknowledge them.
All one can do is be honest and keep acting in good faith even when others aren’t, and help pick up the pieces when this gender ideology comes crashing down under the weight of it’s own arrogance. Gender isn’t a fact of existence like sex is, it’s a set of stereotypes being used to assert that a claimed gender identity must be respected, even when it’s obviously not real. One is not bound to go along with a lie, no matter how sincere the belief in it is. How to do that firmly, yet with respect for those who believe otherwise is the rub.
Well those many women are just wrong then. Of course feminism is about women and not about anything else. People who want a big tent about-everyone political movement can sign up to socialism or conservatism or liberalism or anarchism or the like. Feminism is taken.
She seems to be on the right track here, even if the majority of men who claim to be women never change the configuration of their genitals and many never take any drug regimen. We need to make sure the public knows that very few of these men are anything other than fully physically intact males.
Thanks for sharing this, O.
Plus a brilliant comment from Sastra (another one of many.)